The Kingdom postponed .....or...transferred?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Sep 27, 2016.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    In His book- The End Times Made Simple....Sam Waldron writes on pg 70-

    Some have said that the Kingdom was postponed because the Jews rejected their Messiah.
    Such language entangles itself in questions about the sovereignty of God and the necessity of the work of Christ.
    It also misses the fact that God's reaction to the unbelief of the Jewish nation is not to postpone the Kingdom, but to transfer the Kingdom.
    Mt21:43 declares;
    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    Do you agree with this plain declaration of truth?

    Use scripture in your reply...
     
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  2. Van

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    This assertion that Matthew 21:43 is teaching that God would take the kingdom from the Jews and give it to the Gentiles is ridiculous. The parable teaches that overseers, (Chief Priest and Elders, verse 21:23) were not managing their duties properly, not producing fruit. Because they had rejected the Messiah, they would be broken like a clay pot smashed against a stone. Verse 21;45 tells us who is being addressed.

    Traditional Dispensationalism is a mistaken view, but that truth is taught clearly in other passages, such as Galatians 3.
     
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  3. HankD

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    This is one place where I agree to a great extent with certain "traditional" dispensationalists: That the "kingdom" of God on earth has gone from Israel to a mystery form.

    Definition of a biblical "mystery".
    https://bible.org/article/mystery-truths-scripture

    Click on the URL to see full expansion of "mystery" scripture

    Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

    These are foreknown and foreordained of God - the kingdom mysteries are expanded in a parallel passage - the 13th chapter of Matthew. There is also the coincidental and dovetailing entity of the "mystery of iniquity".

    HankD
     
  4. Van

    Van
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    New Testament Mysteries

    The New Testament addresses several (7) mysteries:

    1) The Parable of the Sower and Soils
    2) Partial Hardening of Israel
    3) The Gospel of Christ (both for Jews and Gentiles)
    4) Spiritual Meat (revealed by Indwelling Spirit)
    5) The Second Coming
    6) Man of Lawlessness
    7) Book of Revelation Symbolism
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    Van,

    Jesus said;
    The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation

    TAKEN FROM>>>>> GIVEN TO
    that the reign of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth its fruit
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    off topic....:Frown
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    The previously unrevealed mystery.....is now fully revealed in the gospel
    Ephesians 3King James Version (KJV)

    3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

    2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
     
  8. Van

    Van
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    Taken from the Chief Priests and Elders is what the passage says. Pay no attention to those who pretend they cannot grasp the obvious.
     
  9. Van

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    Mystery number 3 addresses the topic of the OP. Pay no attention to those who pretend they cannot grasp the obvious.
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    What nation did they belong to?....Oh ....that's right -Israel....
    taken from the nation of Israel, given to another nation.....try to follow:Redface:Wink:Wink
     
  11. percho

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    Well I am not sure.

    Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
    And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Ezek 37:19,22

    What nation were, the Chief Priests and Elders, from?
     
  12. Van

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    To conclude that taking the kingdom of God away from those who reject Christ supports taking away the promise to Abraham's descendants is without merit.
     
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  13. HankD

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    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
    The question is : What is the ID of "the nation bringing forth the fruits thereof".

    The assumption seems to be the Gentile nations But it may very well be another generation of Hebrews since those who saw and heard Him in the flesh rejected Him.

    HankD
     
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  14. Van

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    To repeat, the "you" in Matthew 21:43 does not refer to Israel, but to Jewish leaders who rejected Christ. Please just read verse 45! Israel has suffered a partial hardening, but the promise to Abraham's believing descendants remains.
     
  15. kyredneck

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    20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness.
    21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32

    The nation 'born in a day':

    11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
    12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him:
    13 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things!
    16 But they did not all hearken to the glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
    17 So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
    18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world.
    19 But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy with that which is no nation, With a nation void of understanding will I anger you.
    20 And Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I became manifest unto them that asked not of me.
    21 But as to Israel he saith, All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. Dt 32

    44 And the next sabbath almost the whole city was gathered together to hear the word of God.
    45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with jealousy, and contradicted the things which were spoken by Paul, and blasphemed.
    46 And Paul and Barnabas spake out boldly, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first be spoken to you. Seeing ye thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
    47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee for a light of the Gentiles, That thou shouldest be for salvation unto the uttermost part of the earth.
    48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Acts 13

    7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man-child.
    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? shall a nation be brought forth at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Isa 66
     
    #15 kyredneck, Sep 29, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2016
  16. percho

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    As in wandering forty years in the wilderness?
     
  17. HankD

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    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
    44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
    45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
    46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

    and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


    It was more than just the leadership of that generation of Jews while Jesus was here in the flesh.

    At his crucifixion the common folk shouted

    Mark 15:13 And they cried out again, Crucify him.
    14 Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.

    Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

    It is quite possible therefore IMO that another Jewish generation nation will be the recipient of Jesus prophetic pronouncement. A nation perhaps yet to come.

    HankD
     
  18. Van

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    All I am saying is that this verse, Matthew 21:43 has absolutely nothing to do with the topic! The "you" in the passage refers to people who rejected Christ, not the nation of Israel. Now the Greek word translated "nation" may refer to Gentiles (non Jews) but not necessarily. Contextually it refers to like minded people (those believing in Christ) for they produce fruit. So non-believing Gentiles or Jew are just not in the picture, and therefore this verse has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.
     
  19. HankD

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    Maybe, maybe not (IMO)...

    HankD
     
  20. kyredneck

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    It was the faith of a Gentile that spurred these words from The Prophet:

    8 And the centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed.
    9 For I also am a man under authority, having under myself soldiers: and I say to this one, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
    10 And when Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
    11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
    12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
    13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And the servant was healed in that hour. Mt 8

    The 'sons of the kingdom' entails more than just the leadership of that day and 'the many that come from the east and the west to recline with the fathers' is in reference to the Gentiles, their coming in foretold many times:

    But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

    For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

    And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

    So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

    For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

    Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

    And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

    All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

    Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

    And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12

    Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

    27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4

    22 And no man putteth new wine into old wineskins; else the wine will burst the skins, and the wine perisheth, and the skins: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins. Mark 2

    God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem.... Gen 9:27

    1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
    2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
    3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

    And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

    At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11

    They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Isa 11:9-10

    Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Mt 21:34
     
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