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The Kingdom Will be Restored to Israel

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jerry Shugart, Dec 5, 2011.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jerry

    Now how many is ALL the Promises of GOD ?
     
  2. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    "For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us" (2 Cor.1:20).

    The verse does not say that all the promises of God are In Him, as you seem to imagine.

    Instead it is saying that all of the promises of God in Him are yea. You continue to quote a verse which you do not even understand while you refuse to address what I said here:

    Here is one of the promises of God which you refuse to deal with, a promise made to David:

    "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David…I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).

    This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:

    "For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up" (Jer.24:6).

    Here we read God saying "I will bring them AGAIN to this land."

    The only entity that can be brought to the land AGAIN is the nation of Israel. It is impossible that this verse is referring to a so-called "spiritual Israel" because that entity was NEVER in the land to begin with so it cannot be brought to the land AGAIN!

    But you "alter" the promise made to Daivid and say it is not in regard to the entity that will brought AGAIN to the land but instead to s "spiritul Israel." However, God says in no uncertain terms that He will not "alter" his promise to David:

    "I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant…Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).

    If your ideas are right then God did indeed alter the things which went out of His lips and He also lied to David.
     
  3. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jerry

    Yes, that is right. There are no promises to Abraham's physical descendants according to the flesh, because they are not the children of God Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    They are not the people of God !
     
  4. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Of course you do not even attempt to address the words in regard to the promises which God made to David. Insrtead of actually addressing that promise you quote verses which you do not even understand. I will go through this again so that all can see that you have not answered what I said:

    Here is one of the promises of God which you refuse to deal with, a promise made to David:

    "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David…I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).

    This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:

    "For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up" (Jer.24:6).

    Here we read God saying "I will bring them AGAIN to this land."

    The only entity that can be brought to the land AGAIN is the nation of Israel. It is impossible that this verse is referring to a so-called "spiritual Israel" because that entity was NEVER in the land to begin with so it cannot be brought to the land AGAIN!

    But you "alter" the promise made to Daivid and say it is not in regard to the entity that will brought AGAIN to the land but instead to s "spiritul Israel." However, God says in no uncertain terms that He will not "alter" his promise to David:

    "I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant…Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).

    If your ideas are right then God did indeed alter the things which went out of His lips and He also lied to David.
     
  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jerry

    Did not I jiust show you about ALL THE PROMISES OF GOD ?

    2 Cor 1:20

    20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    There are no promises at all to Abraham's or Davids descendants according to the flesh, for they are not the Children of God, the People of God. Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    You are living in a delusion, nothing for physical jews !

    That has nothing to do with mere physical jews, they are not God's People. The Physical seed of Abraham/David are not the Children of God.

    You are trusting in the flesh !
     
  6. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Did I not show you the real meaning of the verse which you quote here? Of course I did.

    The verse is not saying that all of the promises of God are 'in Him."

    Instead it says that all of God's promises in Him are "yea."

    All of God's promises will be fulfilled including the one He made to David:

    "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David…I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime" (2 Sam.7:8,10).

    This promise according to the Davidic covenant is restated later by the prophet Jeremiah:

    "For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up" (Jer.24:6).

    Here we read God saying "I will bring them AGAIN to this land."

    The only entity that can be brought to the land AGAIN is the nation of Israel. It is impossible that this verse is referring to a so-called "spiritual Israel" because that entity was NEVER in the land to begin with so it cannot be brought to the land AGAIN!

    But you "alter" the promise made to Daivid and say it is not in regard to the entity that will brought AGAIN to the land but instead to s "spiritul Israel." However, God says in no uncertain terms that He will not "alter" his promise to David:

    "I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant…Nevertheless my loving-kindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David" (Ps.89:3,33-35).

    If your ideas are right then God did indeed alter the things which went out of His lips and He also lied to David. You ave no answer for this so you just throw out verses which you do not even understand. You say that you have answered what I said but you have never even addressing any of these verses.

    All of God's promises are "yes" but according to your ideas some are "no."
     
  7. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jerry

    No you did not. You do not know the meaning of any scripture as far as i can see.

    Now you know I am not going to believe you over scripture ! 2 Cor 1:20

    20For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

    All the Promises were made to Abraham's Seed, which was Christ Gal 3:16

    16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


    The Physical descendants of Abraham are not God's People. The promise in this verse you quote is for God's People, note He says " I will appoint a place for MY PEOPLE ISRAEL "

    Rom 9:6-8

    6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    That promise therefore is not to the physical jews, people of the flesh..They are not His Children..
     
  8. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    You do not even understand the verses which you quote so you are not believing them.
    This does not say that all of the promises of God are in Him.
    No, not ALL of the promises were made to Abraham's seed, the Lord Jesus. There were other promises made to David and your theology asserts that God will break some of those promises.
    In the OT the physical descendents of Abraham were God's special people:

    "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth...the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt" (Deut.7:6-8).

    It was the physical descendants of Abraham who were redeemed out of egypt and it was the physical descendants of Abraham who are described as a "special" people to God, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. And we can see verses that demonstrate that their special status will be restored in the future:

    "And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).
     
    #28 Jerry Shugart, Dec 9, 2011
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  9. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jerry

    No you don't understand it. All the promises of God in the OT to His people are fulfilled in Christ and His Church, they were all spiritual, even the land promises..

    Abraham's physical descendants according to the flesh are not the Children of God Rom 9:6-8

    6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    God has nothing for them but his Eternal wrath like all other unbelieving people..

    Never, only those with Faith. Hab 2:4

    Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

    Deut 32:20

    And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.


    We are Children of God by Faith Gal 3:26

    For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. That is what Hab 2:4 means as well !
     
  10. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    So the "land" promises were "spitritual"?

    That is ridiculous and it is sad that you do not realize that. Anything in the Bible which does not fit your mistaken beliefs you just say that they are not to be understood literally but only spiritually.The land which was given to Jacob was not 'spiritual" land but physical land upon the earth. But you are incapable of understanding something so simple.

    The Apostles were with the Lord Jesus after His resurrection while He spoke of the things concerning the kingdom:

    "To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God" (Acts 1:6)

    So if anyone could be considered an expert on the kingdom it was them and they believed that the Lord would "restore" the kingdom to Israel:
     
    "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again (apokathistēmi) the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).

    This Greek word apokathistēmi means "to restore to its former state, to be in its former state" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    Since the kingdom of which the Apostles spoke was originally an "earthly" and "physical" kingdom then when it will be resored it will once again be an "earthly" kingdom.

    But you disagree so therefore you think that you know more than the Apostles about the kingdom even though there were taught about the kingdom by the King Himself!
     
    #30 Jerry Shugart, Dec 10, 2011
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  11. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Yes ! God has not promised nothing to Abraham's Physical descendants Israel, they are not the people of God Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    The Kingdom of God is Spiritual ! Rom 14:17

    17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    It is not of this world Jn 18:36

    Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    It is promised to those of Faith James 2:5

    Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

    I have showed you that God's People live by Faith Hab 2:4

    Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

    You are living in a deluded fantasy world !
     
  12. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    The following promises are indeed in regard to Abraham's physical deccendants:

    "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah...I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31>31,33-34).

    The promise was made to the "house of Israel" and the "house od Judah," and that is referring to the physical descendants of Abraham:

    "And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).

    Of course it was the physical descendants of Abraham who were a "curse" and not any so-called "spiritual Israel."

    At some point in time there will be a generation of physical descendants of Abraham who will be saved and who will also be a blessing to the world:

    And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing."

    " for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
    You are deluded if you think that the verses which I quoted are not referring to the physical descendants of Abraham.
     
  13. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jerry

    No its not. That is the Church, The Spiritual Seed of Abraham Gal 3:29

    29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    The Church is Spiritual Israel. That is who the promise was made to, The People of Faith !

    The Physical descendants of Abraham are not the Children of God Rom 9:8

    8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
     
    #33 savedbymercy, Dec 10, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2011
  14. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    Since when was the "spiritual seed" of Abraham a "curse"?:

    "And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).

    You insult those who are spiritual by saying that!
    These physical descendants of Abraham will be, in the future, the children of God:

    "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah...I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31,33-34).
     
    #34 Jerry Shugart, Dec 11, 2011
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  15. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jerry

    I do not know what you are talking about. Did I post that the spiritual seed of abraham was a curse ? I don't remember. You are now trying to change the subject !
     
  16. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart New Member

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    You said that the "house of Judah and the house of Israel" refer to the "spiritual" seed of Abraham and not to his physical decendants. Therefore, since this verse speaks of the "house of Jidah and the house of Israel" and its speaks of them being a "curse" then by your interpreation we must believe that the "spiritual" seed of Abraham must have been a curse:

    "And I will bring them (Israel), and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness...And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing...In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you" (Zech.8:8,13,23).

    You prove that you cannot understand the most simple arguments which I make. I can see that we will never agree on this so I will use no more of my time discussing this subject with you but I do wish you the best in the future.
     
    #36 Jerry Shugart, Dec 11, 2011
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  17. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    jerry

    Yes, but that is not what you stated. You stated :

    I never stated that..
     
  18. TrevorL

    TrevorL Member

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    Greetings Jerry,

    I agree with your assessment of Acts 1:6, and other Scriptures that you quote, that the kingdom is to be restored to Israel. This is still in the future, as the present return of the Jews to the Holy Land is in unbelief as Jesus as the Messiah. But this return is a necessary stage of preparation for the establishment of the Kingdom. When Jesus returns he will convert many of the Jews in the land and they will become the first dominion of the Kingdom of God upon earth.

    Micah 4:1-8 (KJV): 1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. 5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever. 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

    The Jews in the land will only be saved when they are converted and have faith in the promises made to Abraham and David, and have faith in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus as the Messiah Acts 8:5,12, Luke 1:30-35, Galatians 3:16,26-29.

    Kind regards
    Trevor
     
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