The last petal fell into place

Actually I requested you to explain how the context of Romans 4:16 negated the view that it clearly seems to present that grace comes through faith?

By the way, we agree that faith is not of ourselves, it is a gift of God for us to be able to believe the gospel that he sent us. It is "COMMON GRACE." So, even if you prove that God gave us the ability to believe it doesn't negate that saving grace comes through faith. Thus, Eph. 2 doesn't say enough to support your conclusion that SAVING GRACE precedes faith.

 

He is far more than someone.

 

The only faith we have comes from God and that through grace. We accept this grace through that faith given to us. Pulling verses left and right, weighing how many times one word appears more than the other... that's all just word games.

Basically, this is the old "which came first" argument. Was it faith to accept grace, or grace to give faith? My question is, What does it matter? It all comes from God and not us. Whther it is grace then faith, or faith then grace, does not matter one whit... other than to satisfy a man-made argument.

Let God take care of the faith AND the grace. While we are at it, let's let Him decide who will or won't be saved. It's time we started being His hands and feet and stopped debating over something that we have nothing to do with, anyway.

 

Sure the ability of faith comes from God...as does our ability to reason, but clearly the bible shows we are held accountable for how we use that ability. If we place our faith in Buda or Muhammed, or an idol or ourselves, we will be punished, if we place it in Christ, we will be saved. Proving that God gives us the ability really proves nothing with regard to our point of disagreement.

What is difficult for your view is the concept of reward and punishment. Why does Paul credit Abraham for his faith? Why doesn't he credit God for his faith? Why does Heb. 11 credit the "great cloud of witnesses" for their individual acts of faith? Why doesn't the author credit God alone? Why does God say, "Well done my good and faithful servant, instead of "well done me," if indeed he does EVERYTHING? Instead of Jesus rebuking men for their lack of faith, shouldn't he rebuke God for not giving them faith? In short, why reward men who have NOTHING to do with anything? You might as well give a trophy to a tree for growing. It makes no sense.

 

You are attempting to distill the faith commended into a single act or point in time, putting God in a box. It doesn't work that way. Maybe I see it all as rather simplistic, maybe I don't, but it is actually a very simple concept to my mind.

God does not give the faith someone has for Buddha or Islam or even evolution... that is completely man's own will flung in the face of God in an attempt to live outside of God's plan for mankind. Faith in Jesus Christ does come from God, as no man seeks after God in his own heart.

Abraham's faith came from God, but it was Abraham who accepted and lived that faith. The same goes for the cloud of witnesses. The parable has no horse in this race as it is not about salvation.

God can rebuke us for our lack of faith because we have not acted on the faith given to us. I may have faith that my chair will hold me up, but until I sit in the chair I have not acted upon it. the same goes for our faith; God gives it, but we must accept and act on it. A paycheck is a great thing to be given, but it does you no good until it is cashed or deposited into your account.

 

I think I could make a strong argument showing that my view is much simpler than the complexities of the typical Calvinistic explanations. God invites all and some accept while others reject. Pretty simple.

Not one of us believe that man seeks after God in his own heart. This discussion, however, is about man's ability to willingly respond to a God actively seeking us.

So, do you believe that someone who never comes to faith in Christ did so because God didn't give them faith or because they chose not to act in the faith God had given them?

 

This is always the response to Scripture that shows the error of Calvinism.

 

Yes, you understand. :thumbsup:

God is gracious to all men, he makes the rain fall on the good and the evil. But salvation must be received through faith.

There are only three ways to get anything. First, you can work for it. We all agree that no man can earn his salvation, we are all come short of the glory of God. Second, you can steal it. Now, I think we all agree that no man can possibly steal salvation and everlasting life. And if we could, that would still be of our own works and self-effort.

The third option is that someone can give you something as a free gift. And that is what salvation is, a free gift. But a person can refuse a gift, in fact, all that try to save themselves through their own works and righteousness are rejecting this free gift.

But when you accept a gift it necessarily involves faith, because you are depending or relying upon the gift giver. As Christians we are not trying to earn our way to heaven or attempt to steal it, we are relying on Jesus to give us eternal life as a free gift. So there must be a repentance or turning away from self effort and a depending on Christ to receive this gift.

Whenever you see where someone "found grace" in scripture, it always mentions God's eyes or sight, and you will see they had faith in God. For instance, Moses left Egypt when he was 40 years old. In Hebrews 11 it explains that Moses foresook the riches, power, and prestige of Egypt which he could have had, being raised in Pharaoh's house as a son. But he had greater respect for the true God.

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

It was nearly 40 years later after Moses left Egypt that God appeared to him in the burning bush and said Moses had found grace in his sight, and that he knew Moses's name.

Exo 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

Notice God says Moses found grace "in my sight". God saw the faith of Moses when he left Egypt, and this is why Moses found favor or grace with God. That is the whole subject of those saints mentioned in Hebrews 11.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

You will see that in all cases where the scriptures say that a man found grace with God that it mentions Gods eyes or sight. Look it up and see for yourself.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Gen 19:19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:

Exo 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

I could continue, but if you look up all instances of a person finding grace with God in the scriptures, it always mentions God's sight. God sees something in these persons that causes him to show grace to them. Hebrews 11 shows that to be faith. For without faith it is impossible to please God.

 

Not a zinger, just the truth. Unfortunately, we all do it on occasion.

 

Two very insightful posts above Trotter!:thumbsup::thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs:

 

Yeah, my favorite part was his quote: "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled,
and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."

Cicero - 55 BC

:thumbsup:

 

I will go along with that. You are improving Skandelon. Next time read the large print and quit bragging on your eyesight, with or without specs!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

My good eye sight comes from God and God alone. I have nothing to do with it so how can I boast? :laugh:

 

It is very important whether faith or grace came first. If faith comes before grace then all men can be saved. If a person can only have faith if God gives it to him through grace, then only a few persons whom God chose can be saved.

And the scriptures are not silent on this, they show grace comes through faith.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Perhaps you do not understand this verse, but Paul is saying we must be saved through faith in order for it to be accounted grace. Otherwise, the only other option is being saved through works which is accounted debt. And Paul says that.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Paul is saying there are two possibilities to consider. They are:

Works ----> Reward reckoned of debt

Faith ----> Reward reckoned of grace

So, in order for our salvation to be reckoned or counted of grace, a person must necessarily be saved by faith.

And further, Paul again shows it is faith that gives access to grace.

Rom 5: 1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Pretty plain reading here, Paul says we have access by faith into grace. So necessarily faith comes before grace.

There are no scriptures that show faith comes through grace. If you know one, please present it.

 

So Jesus only died for some, but not all? I'd like to see the chapter and verse for that one.

I understand the verses very well. When viewed as a whole they are rather plain, but trying to break each one down as its own doctrine leads to the kind of discussion going on here. Paul moves from faith to grace and from grace to faith as they are dependent one upon another. Neither is exclusive of the other as they are the two sides of the coin. How one cannot see this is completely beyond me.

Salvation has nothing to do with works. If works could save you then every Mormon missionary and JW would be first in line, as would most Catholics. But that is not the case. Salvation is the work of God through Christ, and His means is grace alone through faith. Again, these are the two sides of the same coin, one dependent on the other. No one can separate them as one must have the other as far as salvation is concerned.

Scripture as a whole explains the relationship of grace and faith.

Where does faith come from? Where does grace come from? Both come from God alone. How does one accept grace? Through faith in Jesus Christ. Where does one get that faith? From the Holy Spirit. Why does God give us this faith? It is by the grace He bestows on us.

You cannot separate grace and faith into two different entities without denying what they are and where they come from to begin with.

 

First of all, I believe that Jesus died for all men and desires that all men be saved. It is Cals/DoGs that believe Jesus only died for the elect.

And I agree with you about faith and grace being two sides of the same coin, however the order is still important. Yes, we are saved by grace, but it is through faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You cannot access God's grace except through faith. That is the order and method God has set out. He offers grace to all men, but it must be entered through faith. That is the order.

If God gives a man faith through grace as Cals/Dogs believe, then you are receiving God's grace or favor without faith. But God says it is impossible to please him without faith. That's what grace means, it means God's favor, or that he is pleased with you.

This is why I showed the many verses that always point out God's eyes or sight when it says a man found grace.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Exo 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

Look up "found grace" in a concordance. You will always see it mentions sight. Grace is conditional upon something God sees in a man. That is faith. For without faith it is impossible to please God.

Judges 6:17 And he said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, then shew me a sign that thou talkest with me.

God is not going around handing out his grace for no reason. A person must have faith before they receive God's grace. That is why you will always see grace following or "through faith" in the scriptures.

If you can show a verse that says faith comes through grace, then please present it.

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Notice Paul says it pleased God to call him. Well, we know from Hebrews 11:6 that it is impossible to please God without faith, so obviously Paul had faith and therefore God called him by his grace.

 

Many have a misplaced faith in themselves instead of Christ, but they still have faith. They are capable of placing their faith in something. Without God's grace there would be nothing of eternal value to place our faith in.