The Last Supper was not the Passover Meal

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Aug 19, 2006.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Said I, Gerhard Ebersoehn,
    DHK, I haven't seen if you have answered me when I elsewhere made the point the Last Supper was NOT the Passover meal - for MANY reasons. How couls it have been the Passover meal when the Lamb of God's Passover had not yet been slain?


    Answered DHK,
    It is well known (despite your objections) that the Lord Jesus Christ instituted what we now call the "Lord's Supper" during the Passover meal. Of that there is no doubt. Christ is our passover lamb. Because He hadn't been led to the cross yet is irrelevant. You are reading too much into the Scripture. The meal was symbolic, as was every animal sacrifice in the Old Testament. Every animal sacrifice in the Old Testament looked forward to Christ. The blood that was spilt looked forward to the blood that Christ would spill on the cross. Thus John came on the scene and in John 1:29, seeing Jesus, he declared:

    John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    Quote:
    Jesus said He is the Bread of Life - of life-usual too! implying the use of ORDINARY bread for the representation of Him during the Lord's Supper.
    This is a ludicrous argument. The feast was always with unleavened bread. The Lord's Supper is historically eaten with unleavened bread. History, commentaries of all denominational backgrounds attest to the same fact. Nothing but unleavened bread has ever been used in the elements of the Lord's Table in almost any denomination. The inconsistency comes when that same denomination holds to an unbiblical "tradtion" and drinks "leavened" wined, thus symbolizing corruption in the blood of Christ. What kind of logic you find in that I will never know.
    DHK


    It is pure assumption - in fact presumption, "...the Lord Jesus Christ instituted what we now call the "Lord's Supper" during the Passover meal. Of that there is no doubt."
     
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    These were DHK's assumptions embroidered:

    "...This (the Last Supper was not the Passover Meal) is a ludicrous argument. The feast was always with unleavened bread. The Lord's Supper is historically eaten with unleavened bread. History, commentaries of all denominational backgrounds attest to the same fact. Nothing but unleavened bread has ever been used in the elements of the Lord's Table in almost any denomination. The inconsistency comes when that same denomination holds to an unbiblical "tradtion" and drinks "leavened" wined, thus symbolizing corruption in the blood of Christ. What kind of logic you find in that I will never know."

    "The Feast" was not yet; its 'Preparation-day' - 14 Nisan - had only begun (with its evening-part) "BEFORE the Feast" Jh13,1-2. "The Feast" would only follow the night AFTER -- on Nisan 15.
    I have peace with the strength of the 'historical' argument; to me; it, is 'ludicrous' and powerless.
    The Passover chronology because it was of prophetic and messianic force, is the only valid.

    Not all commentaries neither all denominations ...
     
  3. tragic_pizza

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    And the reason we should care is...



    ?
     
  4. Eliyahu

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    Interesting subject to discuss.

    I personally believe that Lord Supper used the unleavened bread, even though the official Passover didn't start yet, because of the following reasons:

    1) Leavens meant the sin, contamination, defiling as we read 1 Cor 5:7-

    7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

    Leavened bread cannot express the sinless nature of Jesus Christ, who knew no sin, the only sinless person.

    2) Even though the official Days of Unleavened Bread started from next day, it is often found that Jews eliminate the leavens 1-2 days before the start of Days of ULB, even today. Therefore it is not too difficult for us to believe that Jesus used Unleavened Bread for the Last Supper.

    3) Bible clearly says this:
    Luke 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.

    Luke 22:15
    15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer


    4) How can we understand that Jesus died at the Cross just before the Passover. This is very difficult part to understand.
    But my understanding is this.

    Apostle John was Essene and Essene people celebrated Passover 1 day earlier, without the lambs, but with Unleavened Bread, and ate the Passover Lamb next day.

    This is what I learned from Messianic Jews.
     
    #4 Eliyahu, Aug 21, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2006
  5. BobRyan

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    DHK is right - Christ was slain ON Passover as the Passover lamb "Christ our Passover HAS been sacrificed" 1 Cor 5.

    But at the same time Christ WAS celebrating the Passover meal JUST as scripture states - one day early SINCE HE would be slain ON Passover!

    But I do not agree that "it was his custom to celebrate Passover BEFORE the actual day of passover" as some have suggested.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. LeBuick

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    Christ was slain on the day the passover lamb would be slain in preperation for the feast. Remember, they did no "work" on the sabbath which was Saturday.

    Don't forget about the blood. The passover was, "And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you..."
     
  7. Link

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    The words of our Lord should put an end to this debate.

    Luke 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:



    In answer to some of the other points, if I remember correctly, the Jews did not eat yeast for a week before Passover, so the bread would have been unleavened. i don't know that they would have made unleavened bread for the Supper when it was not Passover season.


    Also, from what I have read, the Jewish scholars interpreted 'between the evenings' in such a way in the Torah so as to allow for two nights of Passover for travelers. They had one the night before the crucifixion and one on the day of the crucifixion if I'm not mistaken.
     
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    I could have given the lazy answer to each and every of the arguments in all the posts thus far, and have referred everyone to http://www.biblestudents.co.za - especially the first volume, 'Crucifixion'.

    But to have done only that, would only have ensured nobody would trouble working through those hundreds of pages and paragraphs. But if you want minute detail and argument, visit my site.

    I shall therefore here try to answer as the posts arrived. Watch this thread.
     
  9. Ps104_33

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    You have to be saved to care about these things.........
     
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Tragic Pizza:
    "And the reason we should care is...?"

    That the Passover is the Bible's biggest and most meaningful prophetic sign of Jesus Christ, "our Passover Lamb". It shows the entire OT economy - of the Scriptures - was one of faith in Messiah - i.e., OT faith was 'Christian'. Salvation is by Christ only under our Christian dispensation as it ever before had been. "There is no other Name given under the sun ..." "Then opened He their understanding (of the Law of Moses, and the prophets, and the Psalms) that they might understand the Scriptures ... Thus it (was) written, and thus it behoved Messiah to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day ..."
    That "third day" was intrinsic part and essence of prophecy, of psalm and of Law. That "third day" determined on which day Jesus would be crucified, buried, and resurrected. Faith is strengthened by understanding - faith in its Fulfiller, even our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
    That's the reason why we should care ... "man shall live by every word that proceedeth from the mouth (Word) of God".
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Eliyahu:
    "Leavens meant the sin, contamination, defiling as we read 1 Cor 5:7-"

    GE:
    Read the other current threads on the subject.
    There you will find also my explanation of the text you refer to.

    Leaven can and also does mean or imply good things, such as the operation of the Holy Spirit, or even the Holy Spirit in fulfilment of prophecy ... exactly with regard to the Passover-prophecy -- the two loaves of Shavuot-Pentecost! (Pentecost is still part of Passover-Feast Season.)
     
  12. DHK

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    This should put an end to the debate.
    The verse above has a different meaning.
    Figure out this one.

    John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

    What is the sop? It was meat. It was part of the slain lamb of the passover. It was the most special piece of meat given to a chosen guest, one who was honored. In a sense it demonstrated the love that Jesus still had for Judas even though he knew that Judas was about to betray him. This was the passover meal that they were celebrating. The meal was before them. They were eating it at this time. Why would Judas eat, and the rest not? Why would John lean on Jesus breast at this time? It was a meal that was slowly taken and enjoyed, especially at this time since they knew that this would be the last time they would be with Christ. At this time Jesus spent an extended time with them teaching them many things even after the passover meal was finished.
    DHK
     
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Eliyahu:
    "Luke 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed."

    Yes, you quote your Bible correctly ... or rather the translation you have of its text. It has been the cause of great confusion as to the chronology of the Passover-Season. "Unleavened bread ..." says it. Well, there's no allusion to the concept of 'bread' in the Greek word used here, which is 'a-dzumos'. If one is an 'amelennialist', it meas he believes there is not a literal 'thousand years' in prophecy; if a person is an 'abaptist', it means he doesn't believe in any form of baptism. But the Gospels explain this word in themselves, by defining it "the day the passover had to be slain"; "the day they always slaughtered the passover (lamb)."

    That day was the first day of the passover-season, Nisan 14; on this very SAME day, the Law prescribed, leaven should be removed from the whole country. A big occasion came to be made of its observance. The LORD commanded that any who should not partake in this day's observance of removing leaven, should be removed from the nation by death.
    It is written --- not to be mistaken; and no guessing about it!
     
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    So read your text again, but read it: "Luke 22:7 Then came the day of removing leaven when the passover must be killed."
    For this day was the day BEFORE unleavened bread actually was eaten. Unleavened BREAD had to be eaten only after sunset of Nisan 14, when Nisan 15 had begun and then, during the night of this first day of unleavened bread, the unleavened bread was EATEN WITH the cooked lamb - for Passover Meal or Passover Feast.

    Jesus or the disciples ate no meat during the Last Supper - not because of any irregularities, but exactly because of the regularity of the Passover Feast Season : "WHEN they ALWAYS killed the passover" (use of the Imperfect) -- which implies 'when they ALWAYS removed leaven'.
     
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Eliyahu:
    "Leavened bread cannot express the sinless nature of Jesus Christ,"

    I suppose nothing physical can.
    Yet what is it that makes you conclude unleavened bread must 'express the sinless nature of Jesus Christ'? Why could it not 'express' the entire Old Testament dispensation for its lack of fulfilment through Jesus Christ, and thereby 'express', that Jesus Christ as the Leaven and Gist of the New Testament, was still come?
     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Now Jesus Christ has come; and now, on this night of the Last Supper BEFORE He would be slain the Passover Lamb of God, now, leavened bread shall be eaten, for to signify that He HAD come, and HAD, 'FULFILLED' all prophecy and promise of God. Leaven like dough in the hand of God becomes pure and holy. Even the day receives content, meaning, significance ... Christ being its inaugurator and institutor; its end through Christ becoming its beginning; its beginning through Christ, its end.

    (That's the reason why we should care ... for the careless.)
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    DHK:
    "What is the sop? It was meat. It was part of the slain lamb of the passover."

    The 'sop' was 'psohmion' - crumb or morsel -- of the BREAD the other Gospels call 'arton' - a loaf of bread. Jesus 'dipped' his hand "with the one He gave it to" - into the bowl that contained the bread - broken pieces of it, "made ready" or "prepared".
    The Lord's Supper is SIMPLE Christian meal of bread and wine - not the rather extravagent Passover meal of Judaism.
     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    DHK:
    "It was the most special piece of meat given to a chosen guest, one who was honored."

    GE:
    Your remark presupposes a long established institution of Jewish tradition, whereas the Last Supper was the totally NEW institution by Christ for His followers. It did not entail this 'special' feature.
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    D:
    "They were eating it at this time."

    GE:
    What 'time'? "The one hour after" ... sunset, according to Luke; the other say only, "in the evening". That was not the time of or for the Passover Meal -- which was just before midnight.
    So it could not have been the same meal, judging by the time only.
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    DHK:
    "Why would Judas eat, and the rest not?"

    GE:
    Who said only Judas ate? Jesus gave to everyone; just Judas 'dipped into the bowl' - a sign of disrespect - "with him" Jesus".
     

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