The LAST Trumpet In 1 Cor. 15:52?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kiriath_jearim, Mar 21, 2006.

  1. kiriath_jearim

    kiriath_jearim
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    Regarding the various teachings of the "rapture" we have read and heard, are "believers" translated or raptured at the sound of the LAST trumpet? If so, what is the first trumpet, since the term "last" logically implies that there are PRIOR trumpets. The only place in the eschatological Scriptures where on reads of several trumpets sounding is in the Revelation.
     
  2. OldRegular

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    The last trumpet is the last trumpet; and I interpret the passage literally just like the dispensationalists do.

    Being the last trumpet it is the seventh and last of the seven trumpets of which the Book of Revelation teaches. Now what happens when the seventh trumpet is sounded?

    The Apostle Paul tells us:

    1 Corinthians 15:51-54 KJV
    51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


    Now if death is swallowed up in victory then there can be no more death so Paul is obviously talking about the end of time to be followed by the events in Revelation 20:11 thru 22:21.

    We also read through writing of the Apostle John certain events that occur at the sound of the seventh and last trumpet.

    Revelation 8:2 KJV And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

    Revelation 11:15-19 KJV
    15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


    Now in the above passage from Revelation we have an obvious picture of the return of Jesus Christ and the end of time. We are told: The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    We are then given an abreviated picture of the Great White Throne Judgment in which all are judged: the prophets, the saints, and them that fear His name are rewarded with eternal life; those who would destroy the earth, the unsaved, are cast into the lake of fire
     
  3. JackRUS

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  4. Me4Him

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    Trumpets are "VOICES".


    Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

    Here, we have two voices, God-Jesus,

    God speaks through the prophets,

    Jesus through his Ghost, the Holy Ghost.

    Just as God stopped speaking when Jesus came, (Law and prophets stopped)

    Jesus will have to stop speaking before God will start again.

    The "last trump" of Jesus's voice (Holy Ghost) will rapture the church, the last trump of God's voice will end the world.

    The Holy Ghost is the "restrainer" who must be "taken out of the way" before the AC is revealed,

    God, speaking through the "prophets", will then use the "Two witnesses" (Moses/Elijah) to lead Israel during the trib.

    It's a "Trinity" thing. :D [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  5. Mel Miller

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    JackRUS,

    Your dismissal of the 7th Trumpet as the Last
    Trump simply because Paul didn't know about
    the Last Trump of Revelation is no excuse to
    overlook the "Great Trumpet" of Matt.24:31 as
    the final (3rd) blowing of the 7th Trumpet.

    Your reference to the website also fails to
    recognize that the "great trumpet" will sound
    "after the great tribulation" of Matt.24:29-31.

    The author is incorrect in the following claim:

    "The last trump is synonymous with Rosh HaShanah"

    Alfred Edersheim, the greatest Jewish scholar of
    the 20th Century stated, in his book on the Temple, that the Feast of Trumpets, while starting with Rosh HaShanah, also includes the Day of Atonement ten days later and the Feast of Tabernacles fifteen days later.

    I see the Last Trump sounding at the Feast of Tabs when Christ appears on the Day of the Lord. Zech.14:9,16,18. "We will all be changed at His Presence; we will all be rewarded when He brings
    His rewards with Him at His coming in glory"! Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12.

    Mel Miller www.lastday.net
     
  6. OldRegular

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    Perhaps so but Paul was just a stenographer. God is the author of the Bible and He knew all about Revelation. [​IMG]
     
  7. OldRegular

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    The above is pure nonsense. You are saying that God speaks with two voices, a forked tongue.
     
  8. Me4Him

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    The above is pure nonsense. You are saying that God speaks with two voices, a forked tongue. </font>[/QUOTE]1. Prophets
    2. Jesus

    1 + 1 = 2. :D :D :D
     
  9. OldRegular

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    Me4Him

    You dispenationalists like to brag about interpreting Scripture literally until such an interpretation shows that your so-called theology is simply the false philosophy of Darby/Scofield. Then you can allegorize more than Unitarians.
     
  10. JackRUS

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    That's a good one OR! Kinda like how you Calvinists try to allegorize away "whosoever believeth" in John 3:16 isn't it?
     
  11. Me4Him

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    I interpret scripture both "Spiritually" and "Literally", depending on the "CONTEXT".
    :D :D
     
  12. OldRegular

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    I interpret scripture both "Spiritually" and "Literally", depending on the "CONTEXT".
    :D :D
    </font>[/QUOTE]Most dispensationalists, though they claim a consistent literal hermeneutic, interpret Scripture however necessary to support the false doctrine of Darby/Scofield.
     
  13. Me4Him

    Me4Him
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    I interpret scripture both "Spiritually" and "Literally", depending on the "CONTEXT".
    :D :D
    </font>[/QUOTE]Most dispensationalists, though they claim a consistent literal hermeneutic, interpret Scripture however necessary to support the false doctrine of Darby/Scofield.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I wouldn't know anything about that, I don't read books "ABOUT" the bible, I only read the Bible.

    I like to get it "straight from the horses mouth", sort'a speak. :D [​IMG] [​IMG]

    If you read the link I posted, you'd know there's both a "Spiritual/Literal" application of scripture.

    The promise to "send Elijah" was spiritually fulfilled in "John the Baptist", but the "Literal Elijah" is coming as one of the two witnesses during the trib,

    So you have a "Dual fulfillment" of that one prophecy.
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    OldRegular: //Being the last trumpet it is the seventh
    and last of the seven trumpets
    of which the Book of Revelation teaches.//

    This is your assumption, your guess.
    You are going outside what the Bible said.
    There is NOTHING WRONG WITH doing this, it is
    done all the time. However, if your doing that
    leads to a contridction of other scripture, then
    you have to go back and guess again.

    It does answer the lead-in question.

    Frequently, nearly always, in the scripture A TRUMPET blast is
    used for 'a calling'. So the LAST TRUMPET means the final calling.

    In John 14:1-3 Jesus promises that He will come and get me.
    In places like Matthew 24:31, 2 Thess 2:1-3, Revelation 1;4, etc
    we see that Jesus is going to come and get me BEFORE the
    Tribulation Period Judgement of the World.

    Here is an interesting statement I'll show is correct:

    The Last Trumpet is the First Trumpet.
    I have a friend who posts here called DeafPosttrib. He works evening
    shifs so you hardly run into him while he is posting. But when he
    posts it is usually a thoughtful and profound post. Personally I'm
    a pretribulation rapturist and Brother DeafPosttrib is a post
    tribulation raptureist - but we speak nice to one anothe from
    time to time. Needless to say, Brother DeafPosttrib is a deaf person
    so communates by signing and by writing. In any case, if he dies
    or lives to the pretribulation rapture, the FIRST SOUND he hears
    at the resurrection or at the rapture is THE LAST TRUMPET.
    So praise the Lord, he will even raise our friendly brethern/cistern
    who are post-tribs at the pretrib rapture/resurrection.
    Anway, Bro. DeafPosttrib's first sound he ever hears will
    be the LAST TRUMPET. THE FIRST TRUMPET Bro. DeafPosttrib hears
    will be THE LAST TRUMPET. So I say, and have shown that there
    is a time when
    The Last Trumpet is the First Trumpet.

    Now let me tell you something else I've heard. (I'm only about 80% sure of
    this, really it sounds like an urban legend, but some trustworthy people
    have told me. But some one who calls me a curse word like 'goy' (Yidish
    for 'automan' or 'gentile', nearly always slightly degragtory)
    might be pulling my leg?

    Each year at the Feast of Trumpets at many Synagogues there are
    three trumpets (shofar) blown:
    1. The First Trumpet
    2. The Last Trumpet
    3. The Great Shofar

    Note in this application, the Last Trumpet is not the last trumpet.
    So much for knee jerk literally.

    Old Regular: //Now if death is swallowed up in victory then there can be no more death//

    Your statement is unfactual and unscriptural.
    When I get resurrected or raptured Jesus will have overcome death
    in my life with victory either by restoring my life (resurrection)
    or keeping me from dying at all (rapture).

    Now, what does LAST TRUMPET mean in
    1 Cor 15:52 (copied from above, no reference version was given?)
    52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
    for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
    and we shall be changed.


    I suggest, and it leads to no contradiction:
    This is the last and final trumpet blown in THE TIME OF THE GENTILES
    which I like to call the Church Age (it is the last age in which
    one can 'sign up' for the Church, the Bride of Christ, the Body
    of Messiah Jesus, etc.

    Revelation 20:8b (KJV1769 Edtion):
    ... Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle ...

    How do you gather armies together? You literally or figuratively
    BLOW A TRUMPET. This trumpet call from Satan will take place
    in time AFTER the the 7th trumpet of Revelation.

    BTW, Ezekiel 38 and 39 both have an invasion of Yisrael by
    Gog/Magog. I belieive Chapter 39 of Ezekiel is this Revelation 20
    invasion after the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom and prior to
    the Final (but not only) Judgement: the Great White Throne Judgement.


    kiriath_jearim//If so, what is the first trumpet,
    since the term "last" logically implies that there
    are PRIOR trumpets.//

    This really isn't the only logical explinations.

    There are two English words 'last' of which I shall discuss.
    1. Last - the final one, the one at the end
    2. Last - to endure, to be never ending.

    And even the First 'last' has seventeen meanings in
    my dictionary. consider this one:

    LAST - 8. individual, single

    This is usually rendered 'last and only' but sometimes the
    'and only' is implied or expressed nearby. IMHO, the
    LAST Trumpet In 1 Cor. 15:52 is the most singular trumpet of
    all time - for it is when Jesus will shake the earth and all
    the saints of the Gentile age shall drop off the world right
    into His Holy Hands. It is called the final stage of salvation:
    the Glorification of the Gentile age elect saints at the end
    of the Gentile age. All the other trumpet calls of all the ages
    pale when compared against this Trumpet Call - fades so much
    that there is one and only one IMPORTANT TRUMPET CALL -
    the one mentionedhere in 1 Cor. 15:52.
     
  15. Grasshopper

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    You say this:

    Then you say this:

    Contradiction? I thought you read only the Bible.

    Jesus disagrees with you. John was the fulfillment of this prophecy, dispies as usual think everything must have a physical fulfillment or it’s not fulfilled.

    Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

    Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
    Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
    Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
    Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

    The disciples finally figured it out. Too bad dispies haven't.

    Of course dispies have a history of rejecting “this is” as they also deny the “this is” of Peter in Acts:

    Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

    The old dualist belief. So which prophecies have dual fulfillments? Who decides? Can’t they have more than two fulfillments?
     
  16. OldRegular

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    I interpret scripture both "Spiritually" and "Literally", depending on the "CONTEXT".
    :D :D
    </font>[/QUOTE]Most dispensationalists, though they claim a consistent literal hermeneutic, interpret Scripture however necessary to support the false doctrine of Darby/Scofield.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I wouldn't know anything about that, I don't read books "ABOUT" the bible, I only read the Bible.

    I like to get it "straight from the horses mouth", sort'a speak. :D [​IMG] [​IMG]

    If you read the link I posted, you'd know there's both a "Spiritual/Literal" application of scripture.

    The promise to "send Elijah" was spiritually fulfilled in "John the Baptist", but the "Literal Elijah" is coming as one of the two witnesses during the trib,

    So you have a "Dual fulfillment" of that one prophecy.
    </font>[/QUOTE]You are being disingenuous and the interpretations you post reads like it came out of a horses mouth.

    A straightforward reading of Scripture will not lead to dispensationalism. Scripture talks about covenants, not dispensations. The word does not occur in the Old Testament and occurs only seven times in the New Testament. On four occasions it is translated dispensation and on three occasions it is translated stewardship.

    You are either getting your eroneous interpretation from a study Bible like Scofield or Ryrie or from a dispensational preacher.

    Also don't tell me you invented those charts you routinely post. they come straight out of Larkin or LeHaye.
     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    I interpret scripture both "Spiritually" and "Literally", depending on the "CONTEXT".
    :D :D
    </font>[/QUOTE]Most dispensationalists, though they claim a consistent literal hermeneutic, interpret Scripture however necessary to support the false doctrine of Darby/Scofield.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I wouldn't know anything about that, I don't read books "ABOUT" the bible, I only read the Bible.

    I like to get it "straight from the horses mouth", sort'a speak. :D [​IMG] [​IMG]

    If you read the link I posted, you'd know there's both a "Spiritual/Literal" application of scripture.

    The promise to "send Elijah" was spiritually fulfilled in "John the Baptist", but the "Literal Elijah" is coming as one of the two witnesses during the trib,

    So you have a "Dual fulfillment" of that one prophecy.
    </font>[/QUOTE]You are being disingenuous and the interpretations you post reads like it came out of a horses mouth.

    A straightforward reading of Scripture will not lead to dispensationalism. Scripture talks about covenants, not dispensations. The word does not occur in the Old Testament and occurs only seven times in the New Testament. On four occasions it is translated dispensation and on three occasions it is translated stewardship.

    You are either getting your eroneous interpretation from a study Bible like Scofield or Ryrie or from a dispensational preacher.

    Also don't tell me you invented those charts you routinely post. they come straight out of Larkin or LeHaye.
     
  18. OldRegular

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    That's a good one OR! Kinda like how you Calvinists try to allegorize away "whosoever believeth" in John 3:16 isn't it?
    </font>[/QUOTE]I am not a Calvinist so I can't speak for them. However, I know of no Calvinist who believes that a person can be a Christian without believing in Jesus Christ as Savior, the whosoever in John 3:16. If you find one let me know. :D :D :D
     
  19. OldRegular

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    I interpret scripture both "Spiritually" and "Literally", depending on the "CONTEXT".
    :D :D
    </font>[/QUOTE]Most dispensationalists, though they claim a consistent literal hermeneutic, interpret Scripture however necessary to support the false doctrine of Darby/Scofield.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I wouldn't know anything about that, I don't read books "ABOUT" the bible, I only read the Bible.

    I like to get it "straight from the horses mouth", sort'a speak. :D [​IMG] [​IMG]

    If you read the link I posted, you'd know there's both a "Spiritual/Literal" application of scripture.

    The promise to "send Elijah" was spiritually fulfilled in "John the Baptist", but the "Literal Elijah" is coming as one of the two witnesses during the trib,

    So you have a "Dual fulfillment" of that one prophecy.
    </font>[/QUOTE]One thing about you Me4Him. You are consistent, consistently wrong. Can you quote one passage of Scripture that supports your remark about John the Baptist. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    Ed Ed

    Bless your little dispensational pea pikin heart. The rationale of your posts would confuse even Paul the Apostle or perhaps Jesus Christ Himself. :D :D :D [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     

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