The Law: All or Nothing? Done Away or Still Today?

Tom, I think when anyone starts with the question, "Does the law apply", or "Who does the law apply to", they end up with some inconsistencies. If however we ask, "HOW does the law apply to us", instead of "DOES the law apply to us", we can be consistent in our understanding.

Q: HOW does the law of circumcision apply to us? A: We are spiritually circumcised with the circumcision made without hands - in Christ.

Q: HOW does the 9th commandment apply to us? We are to obey it as God's children, as it is written on our hearts, and is bound to our love of God.

The moral, ceremonial, and civil distinctions are unavoidable, as well as the 3 uses of the law.

How would you handle the Ten Commandments? Were they the Ten Just Kiddings? The Ten Never Minds for Christians?

 

Tom:

Okay, let's allow that you have rightly stated your point. It's a strong argument. but now how do you account for the fact that in the new heavens and new earth, the church receives instruction in righteousness FROM THE LAW OF MOSES. This is what led the reformers to conclude an eternal nature in the moral aspects of the law.

[edit: Aaron & Tom: pardon me for intruding on the conversation]

 

Agree with your timing, ,ain point was that this cannot be the "New Heavens/New earth" Jerusalem falling in AD 70 NOT Great Tribulation, and revelation has much to happen yet!

 

Actually, during the 'time"of the new Heavens/earth, We will ALL have glorified bodies, all sin and its effect removed from us, and ALL of us than will be obeying God perfectly, as God will be in all and throgh all...

There will be a brand new creation, ALL former things will have passed away, and we will be those whose very natures will be reflecting image of Christ perfectly, never more to sin, so no need to be instructed, as God himself will be forever living in and through us!

 

It works out fine in my mind in a covenantal framework. Old Covenant - passed away; New Covenant - all things made new. The fact that every jot and title of the law was fulfilled does not preclude certain aspects of that law from carrying over into the new covenant - those "eternal" features. The New Testament states that believers are to fulfill the law, not under Old Covenant condemnation, but under New Covenant inabling.

I think I see where you're going with this, and I've this elsewhere, and is one of the reasons I stop short of full preterism. I think this is where you start pushing scripture aside to fit the FP paradigm. I say that respectfully, you know that.

 

So the law has not been fulfilled all the way with Christ, in His first advent he fulfilled 3 of the 7 feast, 50 days after passover 10 after his ascension one more was fulfilled that was the Petacostal feast fulfilled. So there are yet 3 feast laid out in the Law yet to be fulfilled. The feast of Trumpets has yet to be fulfilled, The Day of Atonement is yet to be fuflfilled, The feast of Tabernacles is not yet fulfilled, they will be after the church is gathered in and the end of the 40th week of Daniels forty. The tribulation being that last week. Then the milinium reign in which these last 3 are fulfilled, Israel is truly gathered back as a nation, with Jesus ruling in Jerusalem on David's throne. The Jews will live in the fully inhrerited land in peace.

So is the law fulfilled? I say not until all the feast are fulfilled and that will not happen until Christ ratures the church and then 7 years later returns to earth to rule and reign for 1000 years upon David's throne. Then having fulfilled all the New Heaven and New Earth will come into being.

 

Fair enough. I'm logging off now, don't know when I'll get back to this. I'm looking forward to your interactions with others when I get back around to it.

 

You had me up to this point:

But we still have the record of the law. Not one jot or tittle has been removed from it. We can read it if we want to do so. The heavens and earth are still here and so is the law.

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. [NIV]

When the earth is destroyed and the new heavens and the new earth is created the law will be destroyed with it and there will be no record of it any longer.

 

How is ‘nomon’ being defined in this thread---the 613, tha 10 commandments, the entire OT, something else? Does one’s interpretation of this in anyway impact the meaning of the text?

 

certainly agree that it cannot be limited to just the 10 commandments. I just happen to be researching Matt 5 for an upcoming lesson & a majority of commentaries (at least that I’m reading) define the law (and the prophets) as a reference to the entire Hebrew Scriptures. Further, many seem to be saying that the event is recorded by Matthew to show that Jesus was not antinomian, a possible accusation that had been going out against his teachings. And most seem to think the 2 phrases ‘until heaven & earth pass away’ & ‘until all things are accomplished’ r synonymous references to the end of the present world & the beginning of the eschaton, (when ever this may be), while the fulfill (pleroo) was accomplished by Jesus, b/c Matt repeatedly uses the fulfill formula to show that Jesus was the fulfiller of the OT (b/c it all pointed to him). But I really haven’t seen any commentaries that completely agree with your conclusion as a whole, but that does not mean it is not plausible. While I don’t personally endorse it, I am not adamantly opposed to preterism eschatology (b/c it is to say the least biblically plausible). So I’m interested in seeing if this thread can give further support to your ideas.

 

This is baloney. There is a part of the law which is very clearly different from any other parts.

Deut 5:22. 'These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.'

There was one part of the law, and only one, which God spoke to all the assembly and then wrote on tablets of stone. The rest of the law was given to Moses alone, by the mediation of angels (Acts 7:53; Gal 3:19) and then passed on to the people. All the Ten Commandments can be found in the Bible before Exodus 20 if you look for them. They are God's eternal laws and therefore do not pass away with the Temple. It is these commandments, the ones formerly written on stone, which are written on the hearts of believers (2Cor 3:3) in the New Covenant (Jer 31:31ff; Heb 8:7ff; 10:16).

Steve

 

The ten commandments are for all men.
They were before the mosaic laws were spelled out.
Mosaic law is just an expansion of the ten.
All men will be judged by the ten commandments

 

And, as Christ and the Apostles said, love is the fulfillment of the law.

Nothing is according to "man's rubrics." Come unto me all ye who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. There's commandments One through Four.

Well then there is no law against adultery.

But the premise is false. All the law was not given at the same time nor in the same manner. There is a law that will stand as long as the earth is seen to stand. It was established as part of the creation, Gen. 2:3; and was written in the hearts of the gentiles before Moses, Rom. 1:19-32; 2:14-15.

These things are holy, just, good, (Rom. 7:12) and spiritual (Rom. 7:14). And that which is spiritual is eternal, 2 Cor. 4:18.

But there is a commandment that was carnal and temporary, (Heb. 7:16) and that was the commandment that created the Levitical tabernacle, priesthood and offerings, Heb. 7:5-14. That is the law that has changed, Heb. 7:12. It could be changed because it was carnal and temporary.

So, right there in the Scriptures where you have argued there is no division in the law, it's plastered all over the pages of the Bible in a manner so obvious that a child could discern it: The moral law is spiritual, and the ceremonial law is carnal.

It was gone around 600 B.C., too, but that isn't what determines whether or not the ceremonial law is in effect. Christ determines that, and it was the Cross which took it away, not the destruction of Jerusalem.

When Christ comments on the law, it is clearly the moral law. He talks about anger and murder and lust and adultery, not robes, priests and sacrifices.

In the New Testament, when Paul speaks of the law, he is sometimes speaking of the moral law, which he said was spiritual, and sometimes he speaks of the ceremonial law, which he said was carnal. The end, or fulfillment of the moral law is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned. When love fails, then the commandment will fail.

But this nonsense you're spewing is swerving from that, and you're being turned aside unto vain jangling.