The Law is Inadequate

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by SpiritualMadMan, May 13, 2006.

  1. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
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    I have been mulling things over a bit.

    In the OT God dealth (primarily) with Nations
    In the NT God deals with Individuals

    The Law, Ordinances and Commandments could deal only with the Physical Deviance from the standard...

    And, in most cases that deviance resulted in death. Hence "The Letter Killeth".

    But, God's priority has always been the heart of man... (1 Samuel 16:7)

    In fact Jesus made many written laws far more restrictive by going to the heart of the matter, as it were... [​IMG]

    So, in my way of thinking reverting to the Written Law, Ordinances and Commandments is inadequate for the NT believer...

    I personally feel that resverting to the Written Law, Ordinances, and Commandments is the cowards way out of having a heart changed toward God and being controlled by His Spirit of Love...

    And, delineating them as The NT Standard is contrary to God's New Covenant intent.

    No, our motivation has to be from the Heart and there is no written code adequate to that task...

    Written Codes can affect outward behavior only.

    But, they can not effect change of heart...

    If I were preaching the Abolishment of the Written Law, Ordinances, and Commandments without replacing them with the far more inclusive New testament standard of Love from the Heart, then, some of my critics would have good reason to denounce me...

    But, that is not what I am saying...

    There has been a change of both the Priesthood and the Law...

    Hebrews 7:11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come-one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?
    Hebrews 7:12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.

    Jesus IS Our Only High Priest. Not of the order of Aaron and Moses... But, Melchesidek...

    The Law changed...

    And, when the Old Version of the Written Law, Ordinances and Commandments is used as the reference they are inadequate and inferior to the Law of Love and Grace...

    Hebrews 8:6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
    Hebrews 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

    The writer goes on to say that the reason the Old Covenant was 'wrong' was because God found fault with the people...

    That is, Hebrews is saying that the Old Covenant was Holy and Righteous but the people were so flawed as to make it inadequate...

    But, even acknowledging that the Old Covenant is Good, Holy, and Righteous it was never intended to be in force forever.

    But, only until Jesus Came to fulfill the terms of the Old Covenant so that the Contract could be set aside as completed, allowing a New Contract to be instituted...

    The problem isn't how much God wants from US...

    He wants everything... From the Heart out...

    When we hide behind a list of Written Ordinances we cease to be open to the conviction of the Spirit on matters of the heart because we have a Physical Standard of Conduct not a Heart Standard of Conduct...

    We delude ourselves into thinking that because I have kept the Commandments we are ok.

    The rich young ruler had the same problem many modern legalists have...

    Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    Matthew 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    Matthew 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Matthew 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

    Jesus didn't call him a liar for saying he had kept all the commandments!

    So, IMHO, relying on The Written Law, Ordinances and commandments is the Cowards way out

    And is inadequate to Save, Justify or Make Righteous (Past Present or Future...)

    The Standard is far higher than a mere Written Code...

    Our Only Hope is Jesus and to Walk in the Spirit...

    SMM
     
  2. Claudia_T

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    so everyone in old testament times were cowards?


    Here's and idea, the law of love God and love your neighbor is the same thing as the ten commandments .

    Thats why Jesus said on these two laws hang the entire law.

    If love God you wont break the first four and if you love your neighbor you wont break the last six


    Jesus showed also that our righteouness needs to exceed that of the Pharisees in that we shouldnt even think of doing evil... like hating our brother and lusting after a woman.

    Jesus kept the Sabbath and was always accused of breaking it, but He said even David ate the shewbread when he was hungry and didnt break the law by doing do... and you'd pull a animal out of a ditch on sabbath but think healing someone is a sin... which is wrong.

    I think that I and a few others have been trying and trying to get the point across that the ten cmmandments ARE LOVE... but someone hasnt been listening, and that someone would be YOU, Mike.

    You insist on accusing us of being "Legalists" and now "Cowards".

    Maybe you ought to try listening for a change and stop your accusing.


    Love was ALWAYS the foundation of the Law.
    The Pharisees lost sight of that fact.



    But you act as if the idea of LOVE were some new idea and that only the elite can manage to comprehend it.

    Romans 13:
    8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
    9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


    Mt:7:12: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

    Mt:22:

    36: Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
    37: Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    38: This is the first and great commandment.
    39: And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    40: On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets .


    "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deuteronomy 6:4,5.

    "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Leviticus 19:18.

    Sound familiar?

    In other words, you are going on and on about something that you dont need to be going on and on about, since we already realize that.


    Now pay attention:

    Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

    1Jn:2:7: Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

    1Jn:2:8: Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.


    Jesus gave us a new commandment to love one another, yet NOT NEW since love was ALWAYS the foundation of the 10 commandments (Hello? God IS Love, remember?) yet a new commandment it seemed to God's people at the time Jesus was telling itto them... because Jesus came, showed them how the law SHOULD OF been kept from the start.

    In other words, He healed people on sabbath instead of leaving them to die on the side of the road... God never INTENDED people be heartless on the sabbath.

    Get it??

    ** This revelation brought to you by Claudia Thompson **


    Claudia

    [ May 13, 2006, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
     
  3. Claudia_T

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    Not to mention I have already said TIME AND TIME AGAIN about walking in the Spirit, having the fruits of the Spirit, etc... but you refuse to listen then you go off on these "things" where you accuse us of being legalists and cowards... and so on.

    Your problem is you dont comprehend the broadness of the Law to begin with and then secondly, you wont listen when people try to tell you about it.

    In the new covenant God would write THE LAW upon our hearts..

    not some new law... THE LAW.. go read it.
     
  4. Claudia_T

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    Let me just add that the Law is NOT "inadequate". It is inadequate for forgiveness of sins... we look at the law and it is powerless to help us in that respect...

    but as far as it goes for letting us know the difference between right and wrong the law is NOT inadequate.


    Galatians 5
    16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
    17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith

    23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.,



    Do you understand now that when we crucify our sin,,, crucify the flesh... and begin walking in the Spririt... producing the fruits of the Spirit (love, defined in the Bible as the ten commandments -Romans 13:8-10) - that THEN we are no longer "Under the CONDEMNATION OF that law"? Why? because... Galatians 5 verse 22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    There IS NO LAW against love! Love IS the Law, the Law IS love! so when we begin keeping the law, THEN we are no longer "under the condemnation of the law of sin and death" you see? Why? BECAUSE WE ARE NO LONGER VIOLATING THAT LAW!

    and so to act like the 10 commandments are somehow "inadequate"... that is just plain false.


    well I'll be darned, look at what God has really required of us from the very beginning:

    Deut:10:12: And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul

    Micah:6:8: He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?


    It is very unfortunate that many Christians havent come to the realization that Jesus came "to show us the Father". "When you have seen Me, you have seen Me you have seen the Father".

    Jesus didnt come along and suddenly He was "the nice guy" and taught us all about love, unlike His mean old Father who was just a legalist that needed to be straightened out. Sorry to have to put it that way but thats what some of you imply.

    NO Jesus came to be a living color revelation of what the Father had ben trying to tell us all along.

    THAT was why Jesus said this:

    Mt:23:23: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law , judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

    Did you observe that??

    "the weightier matters OF THE LAW" were being left out by the Pharisees... mercy, faith, etc...


    These were already part of the law, the part they ignored.
    Then Jesus said:

    "Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel."

    well YOU are doing the opposite, you are trying to do away with the Law and separate it out... from love and mercy as if they were two different things.


    Claudia
     
  5. Brother Bob

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    You do err;
    The Commandments are not a covenant but were added because of sin that sin might me known.
    You also bunch together the Written Law (when they went to the temple on the Sabbath and it was read), the Ordinances (which include circumcision, burnt offerings, ceremonial law etc). You conbine these with the Commandments as being one and they are not. What God abolished is the Law Covenant of which the Commandments were a part of but were not abolished. You say we revert to them. We do not revert to anything for we are "saved" and they are in our hearts and minds written by God Himself. You do err also for you keep saying we are putting the Law to the righteous when we say the righteous are "free" from the Law for we don't do those things anymore. We believe as Apostle Paul said, there are those who desire to be teachers of the Law and "know not what they say and neither do they understand" but we that know the Law know it is not for the righteous (the saved) but for the sinner and ungodly for it is a schoolmaster to teach them sin so as they may quit and come to the Lord who will do the "saving".
    You are among those who are teaching others to disobey the Law which is heresy.
     
  6. Claudia_T

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    I just have to say one last thing then I will be through.

    One would get the idea that apparently you imagine me sitting here in every situation, trying to figure out what I am going to do... and what I do is get out my trusty stone ten commandments to decide.

    Welllllll I actually ASK GOD to lead me and guide me and I ask the Holy Spirit to help me know what to do, just like everybody else does

    So this idea that the ten commandments are inadequate... is just crazy. I would be willing to bet that when David got into situations and Abraham and all the rest of them, that they prayed and asked for guidance.

    so this notion of "coward"... too cowardly to do what????
     
  7. SpiritualMadMan

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    Thank you for your kind words and support of the SDA Cult... :D

    SMM
     
  8. Brother Bob

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    If you are taking classes to become a ordained preacher let me suggest a teacher for you. He that lacketh wisdom let him ask of God.
    Also, I never learned it of man but came through and by the revelations of Jesus Christ and not man's wisdom.

    Then maybe you will get it right.
     
  9. SpiritualMadMan

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    Please provide the Thread and Post Dates and Times...

    Because as far as I can see your insistence on The Written Law, Ordinances and Commandments completely negates the ability to see anything else you *may* have posted... [​IMG]

    SMM
     
  10. SpiritualMadMan

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    Sticks and Stones may break my bones... But, you can't touch me through the Internet! :D

    And, I suppose it's only fair for you not to read and *understand* my local posts when I couldn't read and understand that incredibly hard to read and lengthy Web Page of yours...

    And, BTW, you don't know the life I have lived or the valleys My Lord has taken me through to arrive at the Faith I now have...

    I grew up in legalism and every waking moment was in fear I'd mess up, die and go to a devil's hell...

    Instead of relying on Grace Alone and the Holy Spirit to correct me if I did actually mess up...

    If you preach it you rely on it...

    I don't see how you can preach something you don't really believe and rely on.

    And, you *really* don't have a clue as to why I am so adamant against Legalism, even if it is based (solely) on the Ten Commandments.

    SMM
     
  11. Brother Bob

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    If you have some outside reason for being against the Commandments then you sure have a problem. Remove the obstacle first and then try again.

    You do err again for I preach it to the sinner and lost not to the saved for they are in their hearts and minds.

    Every man must bear his own burdens and everyone on this board has their own trouble. I will not bother you with mine for you couldn't help anyway.
     
  12. SpiritualMadMan

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    Then why have you come so against my view?

    In so doing I have gotten the impression you are supporting the SDA, which I call a cult.

    Haven't you read my stance that you are either under Law or under Grace?

    Doesn't that indicate to you that I, too, would have no difficulty preaching Law, Ordinances and the Ten Commandments to the lost...

    And, proclaiming the higher standard of Grace to the church?

    I don't think I effectively communicated my heart on this matter...

    But, admittedly, a lot of text has flowed through the old bit buffer...

    May Christ make us two differing belivers twain?

    SMM
     
  13. Brother Bob

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    I don't believe you leave the Commandments at the door of Salvation but that they become a part of you under Grace and are in your heart and mind. You keep saying we can reference them but I say they are a part of you by the Grace of God which causes you not to do those things again, therefore making you "free" from them.

    As I have posted in the past it as if a civil law of "drunk drivers go to jail" is posted. Well I am free from that law because I don't drink. Same is true with "thou shalt not commit adultery" etc. I am free from them by the "Grace" of God.
     
  14. Claudia_T

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    Absolutely Right, Brother Bob!

    You arent "under the law" (under the penalty of it) because you are now keeping the law by God's grace.

    You arent supposed to continue on being "carnally minded" and at enmity with God's Law. You are supposed to now keep God's Law by walking in the Spirit, and THEN there is "now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"

    You cant keep on walking in the flesh, fulfilling the lusts of the flesh.

    "free from the law of sin and death" (verse 2) means if you sin you will die or be under condemnation of the law... but if you stop violating the law you are then free from the law of sin and death...

    Romans 8:
    1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
     
  15. Jim1999

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    I am not constrained by any law in print. It is love for the Lord Jesus that compels me to do that which seems right, whether written or not.

    As I said before, the ten commandments are God's standard of righteousness, and we cannot possibly achieve them in the flesh. I would fail miserably on the one to love the Lord, my God, to the full. There are moments, but there are also times when I shake my fist at God and ask, Why? Job also did this and he was deemed by God to be perfect and upright in all his ways. I also find "loving my neighbour as myself" a difficult "law". The principle is a good one, but I doubt if any of us can claim absolute compliance.

    With the young man who said he kept all the commandments from birth, Jesus did not quantify the statement, which suggests He accepted that. Jesus did go on to demonstrate one more qualifier,,,"sell what you have and give..." This was one step too much for him. It was not one of the ten commandments, but it was a quantifier in principle.

    Preaching on the ten commandments is a good starting point to capture the self righteous in that each one of us fails to measure up.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  16. gekko

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    "Matthew 5:19 - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "
     
  17. SpiritualMadMan

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    Well,

    Gekko,

    I am so glad that you have extended me Grace as well...

    And, since when is teaching a Superior, More Stringent and Inclusive doctrine, teaching people to disobey the Law?

    Even under 'Natural Order' I am guiltless of *that* complaint...

    Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    I am a Gentile, I am a new creation, by nature I do those things contained in the law even though I do not teach the law as binding on believers...

    Sheesh....

    At least I still have a chance to be called "Least in the Kingdom" and *that* is enough...

    Maybe it ain't all that bad after all? :D

    SMM
     
  18. gekko

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    ok ok ok... i han't read the whole thread... sorry bout that... [​IMG]
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Actually gekko makes a good point. The thread above attempts to slam Brother Bob AND to slam an entire denomination JUST because they choose to honor God's Ten Commandments as HIS Word states them.

    gekko merely points out that if you cared about scripture THERE IS a slam in there that is available for all of us to read!

    The point was perfect.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Your position has merit on the surface but is in fact horribly flawed.

    #1. Christ NEVER said "Stop reading scripture -- if you read my Word and obey it you are a coward for obeying what you read instead of doing as you FEEL".

    #2. The arguments on this board In FAVOR of "Sola Scriptura" ARE ALL based on READING the WRITTEN word and seeing IN IT the voice of God "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit SPOKE FROM GOD" as Peter said.

    #3. NEVER does Christ or any NT author condemn the written WORD of God as you do above!

    #4. Christ's OWN lesson to us in the Beatitudes is NOT to ABANDON scripture but rather to see that it is DEEP and personnal application!

    NT saints were "devoted to the Word" and were encouraged to "study the WRITTEN word".

    We continually see APPEAL to the WRITTEN Word in the NT as "authorotative and BINDING".

    IF we REFUSE the Word then it REMAINS on the OUTSIDE condemning us. But if we EMBRACE the NEW covenant that started outside the Garden of Eden and continues as the ONE GOSPEL to this very day - then that word is WRITTEN ON THE HEART as we read and study it and recognize that it is binding!

    The NEW CREATION produces that new creature upon whose heart is WRITTEN the LAW of God - ESTABLISHED in us by faith Rom 3:31.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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