The Law of God in the NT - What is it?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Feb 10, 2010.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    An interesting topic came up on the "Romans 11 and OSAS" thread - specific to identifying the "Law of God" -- what NT authors call "The Commandments of God" in places like 1Cor 7:19 and Rev 14.



    So in Romans 2 Paul says "not the hearers of the Law but the DOERS of the Law will be justified"

    In Romans 3 Paul again addresses the question for NT saints "Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law".

    Paul is addressing the very question many people ask - which is "doesn't Christianity do away with the Bible texts that proclaim the Law of God"??

    It appears that the answer in Romans 3 is - God's Law remains.


    So then what about Ephesians 2 -- is Paul abolishing law finally in Eph 2? If so - which law? "The Commandments of God"?


    in Christ,

    Bob

     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    In Romans 7 Paul speaks of the Law of God then quotes from it - showing that it is the Ten Commandments.

    In Eph 6 Paul says that the 5th commandment is the "first commandment with a promise". That is only true inside the unit of "TEN".

    In James 2 that law is quoted and called the "Law of Liberty" by which all are to be judged.

    In 1Cor 7:19 Paul says "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God".

    In Matt 5 Jesus also address the issue of "did Jesus come to do away with the Law of God".

    In Romans 2 "Not the hearers of the Law that are just before God - but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified". What law is that?

    In Heb 8 the "LAW is written on the heart" under the New Covenant - but this is a quote of the OT promise of the New Covenant. Which means that the "definition" for Law is the OT definition.

    Fine - so Then what is going on in Eph 2?

    The Law of God is not abolished in Rom 3:31 -- but in Eph 2:15 the ceremonial law "contained in ordinances" that required a separation between Jews and Gentiles - was ended. In Heb 10 we see the point that the ceremonial law with its "sacrifices and offerings" was put to an end by the once for all sacrifice of Christ.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #2 BobRyan, Feb 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 10, 2010
  3. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    The point of the quote in Rom. 2 above is that yes, hypothetically people who do the law would be justified but then Paul goes on in Romans to show that nobody can do this! In fact, it is his whole argument, also in Galatians. God always knew no one could keep the law.

    The Law is good because it reflects the character of God and shines a light on our own sinfulness (see Rom 7 where Paul discusses this). The Law is the standard of the character of God, something man cannot keep or achieve.

    These verses (I also posted in the other thread) clearly show that we cannot keep the law and if we could, then Christ died in vain.

    ...for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. Gal. 2:21

    Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." Gal 3:11

    Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. Gal. 3:24

    You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Gal. 5:4


    I think the SDA teaches you can keep the law, but the Bible says you can't.
     
  4. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Paul declares the Law was made for "sinners".

    1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

    1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    Paul declares that he was a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious. So why do you believe Paul kept the Law?

    1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.

    Paul believed he was "chief of sinners". So why do you believe he kept the Law?

    1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

    Is blaspheme, persecution and injuring others addressed in the Law? Paul says he was chief of sinners.
     
  5. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    The law of the NT is statements made by Jesus, the Apostles, and Paul concerning acceptable standards of morality and behavior.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    That is true of the ceremonial law and as Paul says in Heb 10 Christ put a stop to sacrifices and offerings by His once for all atoning sacrifice on the Cross.

    So I agree that there was a huge transition point between the nation church concept established at Sinai with its ceremonial system of predictive laws - predicting the coming of the Messiah - vs the post-Cross Christian age (persecuted church model) that we have now.

    However Christ did not put a stop to
    Ex 20 --
    "you shall have no other God's before Me"
    "you shall not covet"
    "honor your father and mother"

    Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"
    Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart".

    When Paul is rebuked because he insults the high priest - Paul quotes Moses and confesses that he (Paul) was therefore wrong to insult the high priest.

    Paul deals specifically with the question of whether our faith actually does abolish the Law of God as we find it in scripture "do we then make void THE LAW by our Faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law" Rom 3:31 making it clear in 1Cor 7:19 that he is talkinga bout "The commandments of God" and in Eph 6:1-2 making it clear that the FITH commandment "Honor your Father and Mother" is the FIRST one in that set of commandments "with a promise" as we find it ordered/placed in scripture.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    1. There is no place where the Bible says a born-again Christian cannot keep the Law of God - - no not even "one".

    2. There ARE texts showing that the saints DO "KEEP the commandments of God" Rev 14:12 and that "What MATTERS is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

    in fact the same author that tells us the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God" Rev 14:12 is the one that tells us that if we DO NOT Keep His Commandments and yet CLAIM to be one of the saints - we are not telling the truth 1John 2:4.

    You are free to call these texts "Seventh-day Adventist" if you like - but they were written long before the Seventh-day Adventist church came along.

    Christ said that He did not come with the mission of ending the Law of God - but rather He came to perfectly comply with it (Matt 5:17 -- after it -- God's WORD is Law.


    John says that "SIN is (by definition) transgression of the Law" 1John 3:4

    Paul says that the LAW defines SIN Rom 7:7

    Paul says that the one who claims they cannot stop rebelling against God's Law (are enslaved to sin) and are not going to get eternal life. Rom 6:16

    Thus your "saints must sin" and "saints cannot keep God's Law" idea - only fits one of these scenarios actually found in scripture.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Actually Paul is very careful in Romans 2 to show BOTH the succeeding cases AND the failing cases. And after doing that he zeros in on an "extreme successful case" where he takes a gentile with no access to scripture at all and shows that even THEY succeed "showing the works of the Law WRITTEN on the heart".

    Paul affirms in Romans 2 that the gentiles who walk in obedience to God's Law are counted as real Jews - while those Jews who happen to be in rebellion against God (so that would NOT be Jews like Paul, or Timothy, or Peter or Barnabus or the Heb 11 list or ...) are just as lost as any lost gentile.
     
  9. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    Good response, BobRyan.

    If the Jerusalem Council, in their charge to Paul, wanted the gentile Christians to observe the 10 words of the Mosaic Covenant it could have been included in less than 10 words. The Jerusalem Council knew that the Mosaic Covenant was never meant for gentiles in Hoboken.

    For example, the command about honoring parents - the payoff was that the person would "live long in the land." What land? Brooklyn?
     
  10. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    >God always knew no one could keep the law.

    Then why did God have Moses write:

    Deuteronomy 30:11-16 (New International Version)

    The Offer of Life or Death

    11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
    15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

    V. 16 should be noted. The bulk of the material referred to had no effect until they entered the land.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Indeed in Acts 15 nothing is said about "thou shalt not murder" or "honor your parents" or "do not covet" or "do not lie".

    In Acts 15 no mention at all is made of "Love the Lord your God with all your heart".

    But that is not needed - because as James notes in Acts 15 "Moses IS preached in the Synagogue every Sabbath" and thus AS we SEE in Acts 13 the gentiles were already hearing the Scriptures read every Sabbath.

    The thing being "debated" in Acts 15 is whether gentiles ALSO needed to be circumcised and thus BECOME Jewish converts - not merely Christians who accepted scripture and worshipped the One true God.

    The promised LAND - even in Abraham's day - was heaven and then the New Earth according to Heb 11.

    Paul affirms that the Ten Commandments REMAIN in the NT - including the 5th commandment which is "the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 -- telling us to "Honor your father and mother".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #11 BobRyan, Feb 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2010
  12. Andre

    Andre
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    1,870
    Likes Received:
    0
    I hope to chime in here reasonably soon......
     
  13. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    In the spirit of unity and brotherhood let me say that I like the way you structured this post. Give credit where credit is due. It is a good exegesis.

    :jesus:
     
  14. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    What in the world is going in here! :applause: Another exegesis I can agree with. :thumbsup:

    Just to clariffy one point though, it's not that saints cannot keep the Law, we can, however not with perfection every moment of every day. We still can fail and we still need our Advocate.

    :jesus:
     
    #14 steaver, Feb 11, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2010
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Thank you sir - I'll take it!
     
  16. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    I agree, but remember that Paul was in rebellion before his conversion on the road to Damascus. Paul was just like those other Pharisees who refused to obey the testimony of the OT concerning the Christ. So Paul was in rebellion before he was saved.

    :jesus:
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    And again - thank you sir. I will take what I can get in this regard.

    I agree that "we still can fail".

    But I would not agree to "we still MUST fail at some point".

    Failure to obey God - or failure to resist temptation is not presented as a "requirement" for the saints or as "a must" in the Bible. From the standpoint of scripture (see 1cor 10) there is no sin that we "must commit" as born-again saints. This is a fact based on the "faithfulness of God" not the merits of man.

    Thus we see in 1Cor 10 "NO temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man - and God is faithful who will not ALLOW..."

    etc etc.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    This is getting crazy! Good post Bob! :thumbs:

    Let me encourage you brother and say that these last few post of yours have been easy to follow and informative. I could easily see where you where coming from and why you ended up where you did in your pov.

    I would suggest, and this is just a humble suggestion, take it or leave it, but when you make those big bold, red and blue, and VERY LONG post I just don't follow them. In fact lately I have just been scrolling past them because I just don't have the time.

    It bothers me when I get my own post too long at times and I try to stuff to much infomation into one post. It makes it easier when we keep them manageable and on target. Your last few post were easy to read. I would stick with this style. Just my opinion :thumbs:

    :jesus:
     
  19. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    I can give some leeway on this and I wouldn't say it like we "MUST fail" but I would say that we most certainly will fail. Do you know any born of God child that hasn't? I believe an honest survey would show this to be true. How about you, have you failed since your rebirth? I have, many times. And you have to consider babes in Christ who must learn the commandments of God and how to resist the devil and etc, etc. I don't know of any babies who are perfect with this from birth (spiritual birth that is).

    :jesus:
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    The "proof" in your argument is not from scripture - it is from what you see around you. The argument you make is that while the Bible does not state "you will continue to fail" or "you must continue to fail" or "here is THE sin you must continue to commit from time to time" -- yet because we see Christian fail around us - we are free to invent that as some kind of infallible divine doctrine.

    I draw the line at that point.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     

Share This Page

Loading...