The Law of Sin and Death

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Sep 22, 2008.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Define the Law of Sin and Death.

    Explain how the Law of Sin and Death, works.

    Find in whom, the Law of Sin and Death operates.

    What is the end or purpose, and worth, of the Law of Sin and Death?

    Prove me wrong therefore, if I deny the Law of Sin and Death is the Ten Commandments or Tora or Old Testament or Old Covenant.

    Prove me wrong therefore, even when I deny the Law of Sin and Death is sin or death!

    Then why would I be wrong if I said, Jesus Christ is The Law of Sin and Death, as He is the Law of Righteousness and Life?
     
  2. EdSutton

    EdSutton
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    Hey! Guess what? I was actually able to get this to print in a "normal size" font, when replying to this post. That is size # "2" (instead of size # "4" on this computer screen that shows up on the BB site) and I just thought I would once again repeat that my 'ears' are still not that bad, as of yet, anyway. (I also even made the 'print' ink appear darker, as well, without 'yelling.') :rolleyes:

    Now that we have been over this, yet once again, what exactly is your question(s) supposed to be? Sometimes I do have a bit of trouble following your train of thought, bit I'll try.

    I would also offer that it is also impossible to "prove" a negative, in the first place, so I will not even attempt to do so, in that sense.

    There are 3 different manifestations of 'law' in view, in this passage. "The Law of sin and death" mentioned here (Rom. 8:2, c.f. Rom. 7:23, 25) is said to be in contrast to "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:2) and happens to be differentiated from yet another 'law' called "the law of God" which are effectively 'God's eternal principles,' and is so named in Rom. 8:7. (I shall use different colors to differentiate in the text, for effect, as to which basically, is in view. This could be done in a far greater detail, indeed almost on a phrase by phrase basis and differentiating even further, but this is not intended to be a "Systematic Theology" lecture, by a wannabe theologian.) ;)
    Note: The real or imagined question of the 'genuineness' of Rom. 8:1b does not really affect this, for the purpose of this discussion.

    The "Law of Sin and death" is the 'Mosaic Law,' codified beginning on Sinai, and continuing on through Deuteronomy, where the codification was completed. God promises life by 'believe' (Hab. 2:4; Jn. 5:40; 6:47; Gal. 2:20); death was promised by 'do' when this is contrasted to faith (Gen. 2:17; Jn. 8:21, 24; Rom. 8:13). The choice, as it were, has always been that of "life" v. "death" since that of the 'tree' in the Garden of Eden. (Gen. 2:16-17, c.p. Gen. 3:3-6) Adam, as the 'federal head' of the human race, chose death. The same with Cain and Abel. Abel took life, by faith; Cain took death, by his works. (Heb. 11:1-4) The choice was there for Israel, which likewise picked death. (Ex. 19:8; 24:7; Deut. 30: 14-20; Josh. 24:15)

    This law was never intended to save anyone, in any manner, whatsoever, and had no power to do so, and could not 'give life,' in any manner (but only demand death), even while 'demanding' righteousness that it had no ability or power to bestow, but was Israel's 'child-conductor'. (Gal. 3:20-27). It showed exactly how bad sin was, for Israel (Rom. 7:13). It is for the ungodly and perverse (I Tim. 1:8-10). The Gentiles never had it to begin with (Rom. 2:14). The Christian is not under the precepts of any of that law, and never has been, only Israel. (Rom. 3:19; 6:14-15; I Cor. 9:20-21; Gal. 3:23; 4:4-5, 21; 5:18) It's demands can only be fulfilled by faith, which brings us right back to where we started. (Rom. 8:4)

    The law of sin and death is therefore not "sin or death," but both sin and death.

    Incidentally, sin is strengthened by the law, and rather than weakened. (I Cor. 15:56b)

    And contrary to what is so often taught, the so-called Moral law, i.e. the Ten Commandments, hangs on the two pegs of the civil and ceremonial law, which contain the greatest of the Commandments, and not the other way around. (Lev. 19:18; Deut. 6:1-5; Matt. 22:36-40; Mk. 12:28-34) Jesus also put "defraud not" (Lev. 19:13) on par with the "big Ten" (Mk. 10:19), and James describes 'respecting of persons' as sin, in the same manner, placing this right alongside murder and adultery. (Jas.2) Why would anyone want to subject themselves to such confusing and seemingly conflicting requirements??

    I'm just not going to be the beaten slave of any weak, bankrupt beggar, which is exactly what the Mosaic law is (Gal. 4:9), when I'm a "King's kid," an heir of God, and a joint-heir with Jesus Christ. (Rom. 8:17)

    [Edited to add] I think this should answer your second question, if not explicitly, for Jesus is not the law of sin and death, in any manner, in that regard.

    Ed


     
    #2 EdSutton, Sep 23, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2008
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    Thank you, Ed Sutton, to have replied. I am also thankful for what happened on other threads in the mean-time, so that we may here make a fresh start.

    This is a big subject, that cannot be properly discussed in a few minutes. You have supplied me a great lot to think over and write back on. Unfortunately I shall need more time. I want to prepare properly by myself, first, before I answer or in order to answer. I am treading onto new territory to myself.

    But there is this one point I would from the start get eliminated from discussion, because it is irrelevant to the subject matter and context of the moment.

    That is your reference to Galatians 4:9, "I'm just not going to be the beaten slave of any weak, bankrupt beggar, which is exactly what the Mosaic law is (Gal. 4:9), when I'm a "King's kid," an heir of God, and a joint-heir with Jesus Christ. (Rom. 8:17)"

    The "beggarly first principles" the Galatian converts "returned" to "again", "worshipping / divining / observating superstitiously", WERE, the four "not-gods" of their "former", idolatrous, heathenish, paganistic "veneration", the four 'first principles' or 'gods' of time of Greek mythology, "days, months, seasons, years". You are greatly mistaken to mistake these pagan gods and their worship, for what you - not the Bible - call, "the Mosaic Law". The Seventh Day Adventists have for more than one and half a century tried to prove just that, and failed. May I refer you to previous threads where BobRyan and EricB and myself inter alia were in conversation on this Scripture. I think one went like this, 'Do you mistake Romans 14 for Galatians 4:9' --- or along those lines. Not very long ago. BobRyan in fact had to position himself against his own denomination on this Scripture! That, I can tell you, takes some guts!

    Your relying for your viewpoint on Gl4:9 should not be allowed. The Scriptures in no way correlate the "Law of Sin and Death" with the "not-gods / first principles: days, months, season, years". Please do not let us get side-tracked and completely derailed by associating these concepts; they are mutually exclusive thoughts.
     
    #3 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Sep 25, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2008
  4. billwald

    billwald
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    1. We all sin.

    2. We all die.

    3. Then comes the judgement.
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    What, or rather, Who, is “The Law of sin and death”?


    The Law-of-the-Spirit-of-life-in-Christ-Jesus,
    in-Christ-Jesus-freed thee
    from the law of sin and death.

    God in his mercy has made thee free from God in his judgment.
    That is, God, freed thee from death - its sting, sin, 1Cor15:56, in-Christ-Jesus being removed and abolished through the sacrifice of Himself the Propitiation for sin. (Ro3:25, 1Jn2:2, 4:10).
    The sinner cannot atone for his sins himself nor set himself free from its wages, which is death, Ro6:23. In himself the sinner is the powerless victim of his own weakness and sinfulness; nevertheless, death being the wages of sin, is no law of cause and effect merely. The Spirit of Life operated in Christ for the sinner, it says, unto the setting free of him in bondage under “The Law of sin and death”. “The Strength of sin, is the Law”, 1Cor15:56b.
    Death being the wages of sin, is no natural law, considered its being God’s Commandment in-Christ-Jesus. Sin must kill the sinner by ordination of Him who has power over both life and death. “I have POWER to lay down my life … This Commandment I received of my Father”. Jn10:18. Sin is the sting; and the potency of the sting is the Law of God, like the venom in the sting of the wasp is what brings pain to it.
    The strength of sin is the Law” of God’s Power indistinguishable from Himself; “the strength of sin” is not the strength or weakness of the Law of Moses! God sets the sinner free from his own pronouncement of the death-sentence over him. God is the Law Himself that is “the Law of sin and death”, “These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the (one and only) key of David, He that openeth (into Life) and NO MAN shutteth; and shutteth (out from life), and NO MAN openeth.”
    Sin is not sin for any reason of its own; sin is sin because God is the Law of sin and death; because “God saith”, therefore, sin is made sin, and is given strength to sting and demand its wages, which is death. Were not God the Potentate, sin could not have ruled. Said not God, “Thou shalt not”, or, “Thou shalt”, no one would have been transgressor of God’s Commandment, and no one would have been a sinner, but all would have lived or died by a righteousness their own, which could not be.
    God is not the cause of sin, but He is the Law of sin, or lawlessness would have ruled. But now it is God who rules, and as the Law, rules over sin and death, through Jesus Christ, unto life unto whom God is merciful. God sets the sinner in Christ free from His own decree that at first pronounced death upon him. That explains how Paul could argue how death could rule before the written Law had been given.
    The Law of sin and death is not sin or death; the Law of sin and death is not sinful or vulnerable; the Law of sin and death is not the written Law, which is powerless in itself, and transitory, and was destructible and changeable however glorious and perfect it had been! “The Law of sin and death”, is “The Lord our Lawgiver”, Is33:22. “There is One-Lawgiver-Who-Is-Able”, Js4:12, to pronounce sin, sin, and death, sin’s wages, and the Law, sin’s strength, God in all His Power and Glory through Jesus Christ, Himself.
    Who is the Law who said: “Thou shalt not eat of the tree … for thou shalt surely die”? Who is the Law who says, “The soul that sinneth shalt surely die”? Is it that “Letter (that) kills”, or God, Who gives life and takes life?
    Blessed is the man who is set free from the Law of sin and death by the only Potentate who could set him free from it, The Law of sin and death in Person of “The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, (who) hath set thee free in-Christ-Jesus from the Law of sin and death.” God in his mercy freed thee from God in his judgment. “The Almighty hath given me life.” Job33:4. “He preserveth not the life of the wicked.” Job36:6. “O Lord, Thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: Thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit … For His Anger endureth but a moment; in His Favour (in Christ Jesus) is Life.” Ps30:3,5. “For with Thee is the Fountain of Life.” Ps36:9. God is “the Law of sin and death” – “I will require / exact the life of man!” (Gn9:5) – as God is “The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus”. “The Creditor is come to take away my two sons to be bondmen.” 2K4:1. God is the Creditor, as God is the Acquitter. “If I sin, then Thou markets me, and Thou wilt not acquit me from my iniquity. … Thou huntest me as a fierce lion: and again Thou shewest Thyself marvellous upon me.” Job10:14,16.
    It is in His mercy, verily, God shows Himself the Exactor of Justice. It is God the Judge, who shows mercy, in that He “The Law-of-the-Spirit-of-life-in-Christ-Jesus, in-Christ-Jesus-freed thee from the law of sin and death.

    That brings us to the next question, In whom, does God thus reveal Himself the Law of sin and death? Who, is the “Thee”, who is “freed”, “from the Law of sin and death” that is God in his wrath? The answer to which question will show once more, God is the Law of sin and death through Jesus Christ in the lives of His Elect the Saved, only; and that God in fact does not reveal Himself The Beneficent Law of sin and death, in the lives of the reprobate. So that the Law of sin and death is pure and gloriously triumphant Victor “in me”, the likes of Paul, over the old and sinful self.
     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:
    If not Christ come to you your Judgment this hour your life, to destroy and annul your sins in Himself, and not this side your grave resurrect you into eternal life in Him, I'm afraid for you, that hour of judgment a-coming will be too late to save your soul in.
     
  7. trustitl

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    Billwald's answer may seem very simplistic but I think it is on track. I would say it a little differently:
    The law of sin and death is the principle that in Adam all died and that death is physical death.


    Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."


    The OT Law made sin exceedingly sinful, but death was in the world before the Law. The Law just made it more clear that we were sinners.

    I Cor. 15:55 "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
     
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    How does your 'principle', function? As an impersonal concept merely, like the laws of Newton of cause and effect? That is not how Paul views the Law of sin and death. Neither how the Bible throughout does - as I hope I have illustrated with examples. The Law of sin and death functions like the personal being of God would; which it therefore must be the metaphor for.

    Then how come would the Law of sin and death if impersonal 'principle', be so preferring, choosing to work in the rekindled soul of repentant sinners exclusively?
     
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    trustitl:
    "The OT Law made sin exceedingly sinful, but death was in the world before the Law. The Law just made it more clear that we were sinners."

    GE:
    The cross of Christ is the ultimate test of the sinfulness of sin. The Law was an amateur in this regard. Jesus said, He "came to magnify Thy Law" --- the Law-of-God! He said He came to finish the work the Father gave Him to do. One of Christ's chief assignments was to come and demonstrate the sinfulness of sin, so that He, eventually, "was made sin for us"! The Law is dwarfed by the stature of this Divine Law-Word of God Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ. Sin and death in their grossest awfulness are ONLY understood in Christ, and in Him crucified, so that the Holiness of God may be seen in its greatness and brightness though the resurection of Him in the Glory of the Father.
     
    #9 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Sep 26, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2008
  10. trustitl

    trustitl
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    I am not quite sure what you are asking but I will try to address what I perceive to be your question: "Then how come would the Law of sin and death if impersonal 'principle', be so preferring, choosing to work in the rekindled soul of repentant sinners exclusively?"

    First of all it does not work exclusively "in the rekindled soul of repentant sinners". All have the death penalty imposed upon them.

    Secondly, we are waiting for the redemption of our bodies: "even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Romans 8:23

    This fits perfectly into God's plan to test our faith and bring glory to Him.
    II Cor. 2:4 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    So that I would rather conclude, The Law of sin and death is God in Christ so that as in Adam all died, in the second Adam all shall live as died they with Christ, in Christ, and through Christ.
     

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