The Line Between Faith and Patriotism

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Timsings, Jun 25, 2008.

  1. Timsings

    Timsings
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    The "Torturegate" thread in the Politics forum brought up a question that I have been thinking about ever since the beginning of the "War on Terror". Where is the line between your faith and your patriotism? Which side has priority? How do you resolve conflicts between the two?

    On the "Torturegate" thread, there were several posters who affirmed torture as an appropriate way to get information from prisoners. I think that this goes against the proper treatment of prisoners according to the Geneva Convention which the US subscribed to until the War on Terror began. Torture most certainly violates the spirit of the Ten Commandments, and the words of Jesus on numerous occasions. How can you rationalize the use of torture and still call yourself a Christian? How can you advocate the use of torture and still call yourself an American?

    Tim Reynolds
     
  2. nunatak

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    As a Christian, I should not torture.

    It seems to me the Bible gives authority to government to bear the sword. Whether that includes torture or not, idk.
     
  3. preachinjesus

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    great questions! :)

    Our faith is necessarily far beyond more important to our patriotism, which ranks about 50th on my list of priorities. Family is second on my list btw.

    I honestly have significant problems with torture, and even more problems with war. It pained me deeply to see how quickly so many churches sprang into supporting the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan when the Gospel seems intent on pushing anything but a warrior agenda. The government is going to do what the government is going to do...but the Church shouldn't act the same way. Why should the Church stoop to the level of the government. We are better than that. We should seek out justice and peacableness for and with all peoples. The Gospel isn't about violence. Just my opinion though :)
     
  4. JustChristian

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    As far as the leaders of the major Christian denominations reacted, only SBC Baptists came out in favor of this war. People emphasize supporting the troops and I do. However, that doesn't mean supporting the war. It seems that once a war has started the only patriotic thing to do is to support it. That's ridiculous. The U.S. has been engaged in some justified wars (WWII and probably Afghanistan) and some unjustified wars (Viet Nam and Iraq). Only citizens of dictatorships are coerced to support every act of violence committed by their leaders. That's not supposed to happen in America. At least not in the America I used to know......
     
  5. blackbird

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    What sort of violence is being committed by "Dub-Ya" that would classify him as dictator?? And how is he coerceing us to support that violence?? Seems like there are laws that give Congress power to stop the war at any given hour----but why do they not attempt to stop it---and arrest the tyrant dictator on war crimes against humanity??? I mean, seems to me that the Nuremburg council sentenced Goering, Hemmeler and others for lesser than what some charge "Dub" with!!!
     
  6. Timsings

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    A case could be made that Americans were manipulated into supporting the war. I would cite Bush's low approval ratings as evidence of a backlash against the manipulation.

    Tim Reynolds
     
  7. Revmitchell

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    You can also cite that elephants fly but neither are proven to be true. You fail to take into account the negative bombardment of the far left wing news medias such as NBC, CBS, MSNBC, CNN etc that work to only report the negative and fail to report the advances that Iraq has not seen since before Saddam in the infrastructure. You fail to take into account the constant demonization that lack little to no merit of the President.

    You make vague references to scripture to support your attack on those who disagree with you but fail to mention any specifics. So which of the Ten Commandments say do not ever go to war? I missed that one or is it Commandment number 11?
     
  8. Thinkingstuff

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    Christians should never advocate violence. Torture included. The antideluvians were destroyed because of violence. Jesus told Peter to put his sword away because those who live by the sword will perish by it.

    Should the United States torture? Well, we've signed treaties that prohibit it. We must be good to our word or it means nothing. Right?
     
  9. Revmitchell

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    Specifically what treaties were signed? Who were they signed with? And who do they apply to? These consistent vague references do nothing to support this position. But it sounds good. After all intentions and perceptions are all that matters. Right?
     
  10. Thinkingstuff

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    We'll we've signed them with the Geneva conventions and no it was not with Islamic countries. But there is a principle that governs those conventions. One of the things that astounded the Japanese during WWII was that we treated them a lot better than they treated us (POWS). This also goes for the Germans I think it says a lot.
     
  11. Timsings

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    The thing that motivated my original questions is what I read here. There are many professing Christians on the BB who advocate violence (even murder in the recently closed George Carlin thread). You are one of them, and you're a pastor!?! You can say that you are advocating violence in response to prior attacks, but that is not the kind of response called for by Jesus. As for your question about the Ten Commandments, since it is widely acknowledged (except by the news sources you listen to) that the administration lied about a connection between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein in order to drum up support for invading Iraq, the answer is #9.

    As we are just over a week away from the Fourth of July, my original question is still important. What is the justification for setting aside our Christian faith in favor of our patriotism?

    Tim Reynolds
     
  12. Magnetic Poles

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    You are right, Tim. The advocacy of murder was shocking. I didn't know God had negated that "Thou shalt not kill" thing. I must be using a bad Bible. For a Christian to advocate that it is okay to murder those with whom they disagree would have resulted in immediate and permanent ban if this were my board. At least it said a lot about the poster. Same goes with these torture advocates.
     
  13. Revmitchell

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    First I did not advocate the murder of George Carlin. In fact the thread was closed down because I opposed it vigorously in dabte. Second you have yet to mention any specifics from scripture that says we should never go to war. And it is a blatant lie that the President lied about any part of his case to discontinue the cease fire of the war started in 1991 under his father. You should know better. Apparently you have no problem continuing the politcal rhetoric of the far liberal left wing news media. That behavior is certainly questionable as being "Christian".
     
    #13 Revmitchell, Jun 26, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2008
  14. Revmitchell

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    So you now concede that we have no treaty signed with Islamic terrorists. and your original statement was misleading or incorrect at best.
     
  15. Magnetic Poles

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    You did in fact oppose murdering Carlin. I saw it. :wavey:
     
  16. Thinkingstuff

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    Not really. I didn't say that we had signed treaties with moslems. I said we had signed treaties. I believe those treaties are globally relevant even though they were signed with European nations. But those treaties are to be an example for the rules and the law of armed conflict that we impose on ourselves.
     
  17. LadyEagle

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    Signing the Geneva Treaty was unconstitutional and has proved it holds no value in armed conflict with non-signers, such as in Viet Nam or with muslim terrorists. Muslim terrorists will behead you after they have tortured you because they do not recognize treaties, only the orders of their false god (Satan) and false prophet (Moe).
     
  18. Revmitchell

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    You made a blanket statement that we have signed treaties. What does that mean"globally relevent"? Treaties are an agreement that says "if" you will do this so will we. Once the "if" factor is taken out of the equation the treaty is no longer relevant. We never said to anyone that we would hold to standards of imprisonment or POW treatment without an "equal" agreement from them. Hence the word "treaty".
     
  19. preachinjesus

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    Matthew 5:38-42 seems clear that retaliation isn't Christian.

    Additionally the power of the sword, that is for penal justice and war, has been given expressly to the state, not the Church. Romans 13

    Also, in the Garden when Christ was betrayed Peter cut off the ear of a man and Christ halted the offense and healed the man instantaneously. Violence isn't a Christian virtue. Matthew 26:51.

    Finally, 2 Corinthians 11:20 seems to complete the argument.

    We can go farther, show me in the Fruits of the Spirit where violence and preemption are Christianly traits. I don't see it.

    We, Christians, should seek the salvation of all men...especially those who attack us. We should never sully the Bride of Christ by mixing her in with rogues and warmongers like we have done. :)
     
  20. Revmitchell

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    It doesn't matter if it is constitutional or not. Only intentions are important to libs not the constitution or the rule of law. I cite the support for illegal criminal immigration.
     

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