The LORD vs the Lord

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by HisMercy, Apr 19, 2004.

  1. HisMercy

    HisMercy
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    Is the LORD of the old testament the same Lord of the new testament?

    When we read in the old testament "thus saith the LORD", is this the same one Lord Jesus Christ?
     
  2. MEE

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    Yes!

    Revelation 19:16) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  3. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly
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    In most Bibles, when you see the all caps "LORD" it means that the original Hebrew was the unspeakable, holy name of God - YHWH - which you may also hear referred to as Jehovah or Yahweh. Now since the New Testament was written in Greek, you don't come across this Hebrew term. So that's why you don't see the all caps "LORD" in the NT.
     
  4. HisMercy

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    It seems to me the red lettered bible editions that highlight the words of Christ in red are mistaken then. If the LORD of the ot is the same as the nt why are only the words of Christ in the new testament in red letters and nothing in the old testament is in red?
     
  5. Abiyah

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    What about the "angel of the LORD"? Should not his words also be red-letter?
     
  6. Johnv

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    The phrase "the LORD" in the OT is typically found where the Hebrew reads "Yahweh", which means "Eternal", or "Self Existent". Also, when you see "the LORD God" in the OT, it's typically a translation of "Yahweh Elohim" or "Adonai Elohim", meaning "the Almighty One" or "the Eternal One". It's how the Hebrews referred to as God, or as Jesus and his followers referred to as God the Father.

    In the NT, we see two common usages for "Lord". In Matt 1:20, we see the phrase "an angel of the Lord". The word here is the Greek "kurios", meaning "master", which is a greek reference a person of authority, but was also used to refer to God by authority (as opposed to the greek "theos", which is the Greek reference to God as deity). A master of the house was also called kurios. Matthew is referring here to the One who sent the messenger (angel). In other places, where Jesus is the teacher, he, too, is referred to as kurios. Rabbis would also be called kurios by the greeks.

    We forget that, while we use the word "Lord" to refer to deity, when the KJV and predating bibles were being translated, the word "Lord" in Old English was a word referring to the master of a servant, or the one of authority (as in, Master of the house). Using "Lord" to refer to God the Father and Jesus the Son is fixed in our verbage, even though the former Old English meaning has practically disappeared from use.
     
  7. HisMercy

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    Abiyah,

    I agree that if the angel of the LORD is a manifestation of God then his words should be in red letters.

    MEE,

    I certainly agree with the scriptural reference of Rev. 19:16.

    I need to take this one step further then. If the LORD of the ot is the same as the Lord of the nt and there is only one LORD then how does Isaiah 63:16 fit into this? It says "Doubtless thou art our Father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our Father, our Redeemer; thy name is from everlasting." Also Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand."

    If the scriptures say one LORD and the one LORD is called Father, I don't understand the teaching that teaches persons of God. Your feedback is appreciated.
     
  8. MEE

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    HisMercy, you've asked the wrong one to explain 'three persons' in the Godhead. I've never believed in anything other than one God, with three manifestations; still being but just one God.

    I'm not allowed to discuss the doctrine of the trinity/oneness on this board; although there is but one God. The trinity is still a mystery to me.

    MEE [​IMG]
     
  9. Eric B

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    Because of the unity of the Father and Son, YHWH refers to both. Whatever is spoken regarding the Father in the OT applies to the Son. God is Father (meaning creator, as well as spiritual father of the faithful, or the chosen nation of Israel), and this would include the Word. Of course, in the NT, where Jesus is shown in the flesh, there is more of a distinction between the functions of the Father and Son.
     
  10. HisMercy

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    MEE,

    I'm only asking for feedback from people about what they compare what the scriptures say and what some men say. Doesn't the scriptures say we should search the scriptures and not just believe what someone might say "as truth"?

    Eric B,

    You mention the unity of the Father and Son. What about the Holy Spirit?
     
  11. Dave Taylor

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    I always best understood the trinity in a couple of ways.

    1 "what" in divine essence
    consisting of
    3 "whos" in harmonious distinction

    or

    steam, liquid, and ice = all three 100% H2O, but all three with distinctions between the others; while still remaining perfectly 100% H2O.

    Some folks use the 'egg' as an analogy.

    One egg, made up of three parts: Shell, White, & Yolk.

    There are subject-object distinctions between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit showing their individuality and uniqueness within the Godhead; but they are all comprised of the same eternal, divine, perfect essence that solely they have; and they are always in 100% harmony, agreement, and resolve within the divine Godhead.
     
  12. Dave Taylor

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    As far as the 'LORD' or YWHW of the OT; if you take the time to study the NT; and the many passages it quotes from the OT, you will find that there are dozens of OT scriptures that refer to YWHW that show His divine, eternal, creator, Godly deitiy nature; that are also requoted and applied in the NT.

    To one person.

    Jesus Christ. God with Us.

    Again, showing that Jesus is YHWH.

    These types of studies, is one of the best tools for sharing the truth of Jehovah and Jesus with those who belong to the JW Watchtower society; and who do not know the real Jesus; and who have been taught to make a distinction between Jehovah and Jesus.
     
  13. HisMercy

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    Dave Taylor,

    I like your reference of Jesus Christ. God with us.

    My question is, doesn't the bible define God as the Father according to 1Cor. 8:6 and almost all of the letters of the new testament? Within the first 3 verses of all those letters God is identified as Father.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Yes. In the OT when you see LORD it is YHWH - the highest name for God.

    From John 1 we know that when the LORD is "seen" in the OT - it must be Christ - since in fact no one has seen the Father.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Very true.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Eric B

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    Of course, the Holy Spirit is also apart of the Godhead. But the topic was "LORD vs Lord" regarding the father and Son, so that's what I addressed.

    I liked the analogy that God is "referenced" the the Father, seen in the Son [Word] and experienced in the Holy Spirit. That would explain why many of those references to "God" refer to the Father.
    Also, the "source/light/heat" analogy is good, and even somewhat used by scripture.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    There is no question that in the NT we often see something like "God AND our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" specifically identifying two members of the trinity. Sometimes this shows two titles for Christ and sometimes it is a reference to the Father and the Son.

    But in the OT references to LORD (YHWH) you see applied to both the Father and the Son in the NT - it is clear that both are included at one time or another under that one title in the OT depending on the context.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. HisMercy

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    EricB,

    The reason I brought up the Holy Spirit is because in 2Cor. 3:17 it says "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." The Spirit is called Lord.

    BobRyan,

    John 12:45 says "And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me." John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.."

    In Isaiah 9:6 I believe the son given is speaking about the birth of Christ. If so, why is one of his "names" The everlasting Father? Something that I've always had a question about is in Matt. 6:9 Jesus says "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed by thy name." What is the name of the Father?
     
  19. HisMercy

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    How does one determine in the old testament if it is the Father or Son who is speaking?
     
  20. Johnv

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    Good point. Add to that the fact that Jesus tells us to pray to the Father. The NT generally (but not always) referrs to the Father as Pater (father) and Theos (God), while it generally referrs to Jesus as Christus (Messiah) and kurios(master, Lord).
    In the OT, I always presume it's the Father, since the Son had not yet been sent.
     

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