1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Lord's Prayer

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by HankD, Nov 15, 2004.

Top Posters
  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There are NT quotations of OT passages significantly differing in wording.

    Also, Luke and Matthew record the Lord as using different words in the giving of the Lord’s Prayer.

    Luke 11
    2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
    3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
    4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

    Matthew 6
    9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
    11 Give us this day our daily bread.
    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

    I believe in the inspiration of the original Scriptures.
    I also believe those original Scriptures have been preserved in the Traditional Hebrew and Greek Texts of the Old and New Covenants.

    The English differences above are indicated in those preserved texts.

    Can we come to the conclusion that the use of synonyms between the Matthew Version of the Lord’s Prayer and Luke’s Version of the Lord’s Prayer in the originals themselves allow us to use differing synonymous words in different English translations?

    In both situations of NT quotations which vary with the OT, and the differing versions of the Lord’s Prayer (and other accounts such as the Sermon on the mount) are in no more or less overall variance than say any given passage of the KJV vs the NKJV.

    HankD
     
    #1 HankD, Nov 15, 2004
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    30,285
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Some variations occur with Matthew's original text being in Aramaic (it is widely believed) and Lukes in Greek. When ALL were translated into Greek, there is some diversity - words like "sins" and "debts" are synonyms in Greek and so could be translated.

    Most of the differences are, for some reason, in the AV translators. Until the "debt" part, the two versions are word-for-word in the Greek, but translated differently in English! Odd.
     
    #2 Dr. Bob, Nov 16, 2004
  3. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is another possibility.

    These accounts were given on two different occasions.

    In any event the inspired koine Greek as you pointed out uses two different words when Jesus says "debts/sins" (ophilema/harmatia) which are synonyms of a pretty wide scope which is also indicated in the English text of the AV.

    To me this enhances my view of inspiration that neither Jesus or the Spirit of God has a problem using synonyms even in the autographs to widen the scope of the Scripture.

    So, IMO the KJV translators made a good judgement when they suggested that a variety of translations (For instance KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV) is good in that their use gives us the "sense" of the Scriptures.

    They also said that of this variety of translations, even the "meanest" of them "is the Word of God" and in fact used at least two of these "meanest" (the Latin Vulgate and/or the Rheims) as an aid in producing the AV.

    HankD
     
    #3 HankD, Nov 16, 2004
  4. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    957
    Likes Received:
    15
    Have you noticed the differences in the Lord's Prayer in Luke 11 in, e.g., the NKJV versus the NIV? This might make for a lively discussion! HAHAHAHA! Also the doxology at the end of v. 13 in Mt. 6.

    Yours,

    Bluefalcon
     
    #4 Bluefalcon, Nov 18, 2004
  5. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    Already has! [​IMG] [​IMG] ;)
     
    #5 Phillip, Nov 18, 2004
  6. BruceB

    BruceB New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2004
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    From what version does the word "trespasses" instead of "debts" or "sins" come from? That is the way I learned the prayer as a boy (I was a Catholic then) and my church (SBC) uses the word "trespasses" when we pray the Lords Prayer collectively even now. BruceB
     
    #6 BruceB, Nov 18, 2004
  7. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,535
    Likes Received:
    21
    It is possible that the Gospel According to Matthew was originally written in Aramaic, but the large majority of Matthean scholars today believe that this gospel was originally written in Greek.

    [​IMG]
     
    #7 Craigbythesea, Nov 18, 2004
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    30,285
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    KJV uses both in the two Gospels.
     
    #8 Dr. Bob, Nov 18, 2004
  9. Bluefalcon

    Bluefalcon Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    957
    Likes Received:
    15
    Just noticed this:

    Mt. 6:10 (KJV): "...Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
    Lk. 11:2 (KJV): "...Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth."

    The Greek of the TR in both places is exactly the same, but the translation is not. Most likely different translators were responsible for Matthew & Luke, but that's not the point. In my opinion, this in itself shows that a one-way-or-the-highway translation theory did not even occupy a second's thought in the minds of the KJV translators.

    Yours,

    Bluefalcon
     
    #9 Bluefalcon, Nov 19, 2004
  10. RaptureReady

    RaptureReady New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here's something to ponder. This is not the Lord's prayer. This is the Lord telling the disciples how to pray. The Lord's prayer is when Jesus is praying in the Garden of Gethsemane.

    God bless,
    RR
     
    #10 RaptureReady, Nov 19, 2004
  11. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Here's something to ponder. This is not the Lord's prayer. This is the Lord telling the disciples how to pray. The Lord's prayer is when Jesus is praying in the Garden of Gethsemane.

    A very good point, RR; however, the verses cited above are commonly called the "Lord's Prayer", but I don't know who started this nor when it began. It possible was begun because JESUS is giving His disciples a brief outline of what should be included in their every prayer.

    The differences between Matthew and Luke are another nail in the coffin of the Onlyism myth.
     
    #11 robycop3, Nov 23, 2004
  12. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    The MODEL prayer is the terminology used by many teachers. The disciples said 'Lord teach us to pray' and Jesus did just that.
     
    #12 dianetavegia, Nov 23, 2004
  13. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2003
    Messages:
    3,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Diane, your so cool. You got it right.I think sometimes people dig deeper then they need to.
     
    #13 Plain Old Bill, Nov 23, 2004
  14. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    2,538
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So where did the "trespasses" custom come from in English, even though the KJV says "debts?"
     
    #14 Debby in Philly, Nov 23, 2004
  15. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,852
    Likes Received:
    1,085
    Faith:
    Baptist
    It's from the Book of Common Prayer, which follows Tyndale in the passage from Matthew.

    The English apparently were accustomed to saying the prayer in Latin, and it appears the English version didn't catch on until the Reformation. Henry VIII, as supreme head of the church in England, "caused an uniform translation of the said Pater noster, Ave, Creed, etc. to be set forth, willing all his loving subjects to learn and use the same and straitly commanding all parsons, vicars and curates to read and teach the same to their parishioners."

    "O our father, which art in heaven hallowed be thy name. Let thy kingdom come. Thy will be fulfilled, as well in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, even as we forgive them which trespass us. Lead us not in to temptation: but deliver us from evil, [For thine is the kingdom and the power, and the glory for ever.] Amen." (Tyndale New Testament, 1525-26)

    "Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen."
    (Book of Common Prayer, 1559.)
     
    #15 rsr, Nov 23, 2004
  16. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    2,538
    Likes Received:
    0
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thank you, rsr; very informative.

    Wonder why good old Henry VIII was so concerned, given his other pursuits.

    Curious though, that the version from the BCP is what is used by Roman Catholics in English-speaking countries.
     
    #16 Debby in Philly, Nov 23, 2004
  17. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,852
    Likes Received:
    1,085
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Wonder why good old Henry VIII was so concerned, given his other pursuits."

    Henry was, above all, king, and he considered it dangerous for his subjects to have different liturgies. Conformity above all.

    Henry authorized the first translation of the liturgy from Latin into English (1544), a work that was accomplished by Archbishop Thomas Cranmer (who really was a Protestant and was burned for it.)

    The fact that so many Roman Catholics know the Tyndale version isn't that surprising; the Coverdale Psalms, for example, were retained in the BCP until the last century despite the use of the KJV for other scripture readings. Besides that, Jerome's Latin Psalms from the Masoretic Text were for a long time eclipsed by his Latin Psalms from the Septuaguint, which the people preferred.
     
    #17 rsr, Nov 23, 2004
  18. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    11,852
    Likes Received:
    1,085
    Faith:
    Baptist
    BTW: The essential Tyndale language is still used in the 1979 edition of the American BCP.
     
    #18 rsr, Nov 23, 2004
  19. BruceB

    BruceB New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2004
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    0
    rsr, thank you for answering my question concerning the word "trespasses". BruceB
     
    #19 BruceB, Nov 24, 2004
  20. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    14,362
    Likes Received:
    668
    Faith:
    Baptist
    While WE generally define 'trespass' as making an unlawful into someone else's property, or to encroach upon the property or the rights of another, it used to be also commonly defined as a "misdemeanor" sin or wrong against another person(s). A petty theft was often called a trespass in the old chivalry tales I've read.

    I believe that in this context, trespass, debt, and sin are all correct.
     
    #20 robycop3, Nov 25, 2004
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Loading...