The Lord's Prayer

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by HankD, Nov 15, 2004.

  1. HankD

    HankD
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    There are NT quotations of OT passages significantly differing in wording.

    Also, Luke and Matthew record the Lord as using different words in the giving of the Lord’s Prayer.

    Luke 11
    2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
    3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
    4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

    Matthew 6
    9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
    10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
    11 Give us this day our daily bread.
    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

    I believe in the inspiration of the original Scriptures.
    I also believe those original Scriptures have been preserved in the Traditional Hebrew and Greek Texts of the Old and New Covenants.

    The English differences above are indicated in those preserved texts.

    Can we come to the conclusion that the use of synonyms between the Matthew Version of the Lord’s Prayer and Luke’s Version of the Lord’s Prayer in the originals themselves allow us to use differing synonymous words in different English translations?

    In both situations of NT quotations which vary with the OT, and the differing versions of the Lord’s Prayer (and other accounts such as the Sermon on the mount) are in no more or less overall variance than say any given passage of the KJV vs the NKJV.

    HankD
     
  2. Dr. Bob

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    Some variations occur with Matthew's original text being in Aramaic (it is widely believed) and Lukes in Greek. When ALL were translated into Greek, there is some diversity - words like "sins" and "debts" are synonyms in Greek and so could be translated.

    Most of the differences are, for some reason, in the AV translators. Until the "debt" part, the two versions are word-for-word in the Greek, but translated differently in English! Odd.
     
  3. HankD

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    There is another possibility.

    These accounts were given on two different occasions.

    In any event the inspired koine Greek as you pointed out uses two different words when Jesus says "debts/sins" (ophilema/harmatia) which are synonyms of a pretty wide scope which is also indicated in the English text of the AV.

    To me this enhances my view of inspiration that neither Jesus or the Spirit of God has a problem using synonyms even in the autographs to widen the scope of the Scripture.

    So, IMO the KJV translators made a good judgement when they suggested that a variety of translations (For instance KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV) is good in that their use gives us the "sense" of the Scriptures.

    They also said that of this variety of translations, even the "meanest" of them "is the Word of God" and in fact used at least two of these "meanest" (the Latin Vulgate and/or the Rheims) as an aid in producing the AV.

    HankD
     
  4. Bluefalcon

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    Have you noticed the differences in the Lord's Prayer in Luke 11 in, e.g., the NKJV versus the NIV? This might make for a lively discussion! HAHAHAHA! Also the doxology at the end of v. 13 in Mt. 6.

    Yours,

    Bluefalcon
     
  5. Phillip

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    Already has! [​IMG] [​IMG] ;)
     
  6. BruceB

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    From what version does the word "trespasses" instead of "debts" or "sins" come from? That is the way I learned the prayer as a boy (I was a Catholic then) and my church (SBC) uses the word "trespasses" when we pray the Lords Prayer collectively even now. BruceB
     
  7. Craigbythesea

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    It is possible that the Gospel According to Matthew was originally written in Aramaic, but the large majority of Matthean scholars today believe that this gospel was originally written in Greek.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Dr. Bob

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    KJV uses both in the two Gospels.
     
  9. Bluefalcon

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    Just noticed this:

    Mt. 6:10 (KJV): "...Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
    Lk. 11:2 (KJV): "...Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth."

    The Greek of the TR in both places is exactly the same, but the translation is not. Most likely different translators were responsible for Matthew & Luke, but that's not the point. In my opinion, this in itself shows that a one-way-or-the-highway translation theory did not even occupy a second's thought in the minds of the KJV translators.

    Yours,

    Bluefalcon
     
  10. RaptureReady

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    Here's something to ponder. This is not the Lord's prayer. This is the Lord telling the disciples how to pray. The Lord's prayer is when Jesus is praying in the Garden of Gethsemane.

    God bless,
    RR
     
  11. robycop3

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    Here's something to ponder. This is not the Lord's prayer. This is the Lord telling the disciples how to pray. The Lord's prayer is when Jesus is praying in the Garden of Gethsemane.

    A very good point, RR; however, the verses cited above are commonly called the "Lord's Prayer", but I don't know who started this nor when it began. It possible was begun because JESUS is giving His disciples a brief outline of what should be included in their every prayer.

    The differences between Matthew and Luke are another nail in the coffin of the Onlyism myth.
     
  12. dianetavegia

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    The MODEL prayer is the terminology used by many teachers. The disciples said 'Lord teach us to pray' and Jesus did just that.
     
  13. Plain Old Bill

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    Diane, your so cool. You got it right.I think sometimes people dig deeper then they need to.
     
  14. Debby in Philly

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    So where did the "trespasses" custom come from in English, even though the KJV says "debts?"
     
  15. rsr

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    It's from the Book of Common Prayer, which follows Tyndale in the passage from Matthew.

    The English apparently were accustomed to saying the prayer in Latin, and it appears the English version didn't catch on until the Reformation. Henry VIII, as supreme head of the church in England, "caused an uniform translation of the said Pater noster, Ave, Creed, etc. to be set forth, willing all his loving subjects to learn and use the same and straitly commanding all parsons, vicars and curates to read and teach the same to their parishioners."

    "O our father, which art in heaven hallowed be thy name. Let thy kingdom come. Thy will be fulfilled, as well in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, even as we forgive them which trespass us. Lead us not in to temptation: but deliver us from evil, [For thine is the kingdom and the power, and the glory for ever.] Amen." (Tyndale New Testament, 1525-26)

    "Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen."
    (Book of Common Prayer, 1559.)
     
  16. Debby in Philly

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    Thank you, rsr; very informative.

    Wonder why good old Henry VIII was so concerned, given his other pursuits.

    Curious though, that the version from the BCP is what is used by Roman Catholics in English-speaking countries.
     
  17. rsr

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    "Wonder why good old Henry VIII was so concerned, given his other pursuits."

    Henry was, above all, king, and he considered it dangerous for his subjects to have different liturgies. Conformity above all.

    Henry authorized the first translation of the liturgy from Latin into English (1544), a work that was accomplished by Archbishop Thomas Cranmer (who really was a Protestant and was burned for it.)

    The fact that so many Roman Catholics know the Tyndale version isn't that surprising; the Coverdale Psalms, for example, were retained in the BCP until the last century despite the use of the KJV for other scripture readings. Besides that, Jerome's Latin Psalms from the Masoretic Text were for a long time eclipsed by his Latin Psalms from the Septuaguint, which the people preferred.
     
  18. rsr

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    BTW: The essential Tyndale language is still used in the 1979 edition of the American BCP.
     
  19. BruceB

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    rsr, thank you for answering my question concerning the word "trespasses". BruceB
     
  20. robycop3

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    While WE generally define 'trespass' as making an unlawful into someone else's property, or to encroach upon the property or the rights of another, it used to be also commonly defined as a "misdemeanor" sin or wrong against another person(s). A petty theft was often called a trespass in the old chivalry tales I've read.

    I believe that in this context, trespass, debt, and sin are all correct.
     

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