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Discussion in 'Pastoral Ministries' started by Salty, Oct 31, 2003.
In our church we recite the Lords prayer:
Reciting the Lord's Prayer as a part of "liturgy" is a type of "formalism" in worship that most fundamental or conservative baptists would eschew.
Rote repetition is a hallmark of liberal Protestant churches and is a direct descendent of Catholicism's rituals. And we all know how the "pendulum swings" - if liberals do it, conservatives won't!!
You mean, "If it be possible, let this cup pass from Me..."
I never know which Lord's prayer is meant. I know many people recite the model prayer given in the gospels. A model of how we should pray.
At the chapel that we attend we sing the Lords Prayer.
I never knew that reciting scripture in Church was liberal
I am pretty much matthew 6:7... reading the scripture is a good thing. Repeating it like a mantra is, I believe, the type of thing Christ was referring to as vain repetitions. It starts to lose message to our hearts.
I think all liturgical churches would agree with you. Vain repetition is wrong. I however hear people pray "spontaneous" or "extemporaneous
" prayer and quess what, many times it is the same prayer or repeating the same thing. The Bible condemns vain repetition but not repetition. In my personal devotions i generaly say the Lord's Prayer after I say extemporaneous prayer praying that my "spontaneous" or "extemporaneous
" prayer is in line with that model prayer of Mt. 6.
Such things as saying Liturgy is Roman Catholic is a myth. Actually English liturgy has it's roots in the Lutheran and English Reformation. It's a "Catholic thing" argument is wrong history since Catholic liturgy was Latin until Vatican II. The Church of England of the Reformation is where most liturgical worship has it's roots.
Out of curiosity, how do amills deal with the line "Thy kingdom come," if the kingdom has already come?
Ulsterman, just as we have been saved, we are being saved and ultimately will be saved. So, the kingdom has come in the form of the church, so the kingdom is coming and will come in its fulness at the second advent.
Not detailed, but nutshell.
perhaps I should clarify. When we repeat it in such a manner as to make it meaningless. Such as in a language we do not understand... or to the point where we are just saying it but it has no effect on our thinking or lives. My mother used to threaten to punish us, but never followed through, so when she said " stop that or you will be" grounded or spanked or etc... but it ceased to modify our behavior, it became vain repetition. You obviously used it to measure and help to modify your thinking or behavior.
Matthew 6:5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.
9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. 13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. 14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
16 "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 17 But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
In context, we see that Jesus was giving his disciples some lessons on prayer, giving, fasting, praise, etc. and NOT telling them to repeat His prayer word for word. It is to be in OUR words, from OUR heart and in secret!
j-banner I agree with you. For many it has become a vain repetition. Saying the Lord's prayer can be a mantra and I am sure it is for many who have not been taught on what worship is.
I am disturbed by vain repetition in Baptist worship. When singing of hymns for so many there is no focusing on the meaning of the words or actual heart felt singing. We can all get caught up in some sort of vain repetition if we are not careful and both liturgical and non liturgical churches have a problem in this area in my opinion. Thanks for your clarification.
You are correct that Jesus was not telling them to pray this prayer word for word. It is a model prayer. It is also correct to say that Jesus was not prohibiting anyone from saying this prayer as long as it was from the heart. It can still be used along with extemporaneous prayer in a way of praying that your extemporaneous prayer is in line with that model prayer of Mt. 6.
There is however no prohibition in Scripture against reciting a prayer in worship. There is evidence in Scripture for both extemporaneous prayer and liturgical prayer. In Acts 4:24-31 the Church recited a modified version of Psalms 2 that appears they had memorized. It was not extemporaneous. In Rev 4-5 the prayers of the saints in Heaven in done in a liturgical way and not extemporaneous. So Scripture validates both extemporaneous and liturgical prayers. I personaly believe a combination of the two would enrich most worship services.
For those Churches that do say the Lord's prayer word for word on Sunday it is a way of reciting back Jesus's Words with the promise his words in Mt. 6:9-13 will be fulfilled in our lives. The key thing to any prayer is that it comes from the heart be it liturgical or extemporaneous. That is the issue for Jesus.
I agree Kiffin. Even Jesus quoted scripture but it is the heart condition that is suspect when a prayer is repeated at a set time during every service.
I tend to believe that even hymns and praise songs can be vain repetition if the heart is not right! What good is the Doxology if I'm planning my afternoon in my head? What good is a responsive reading if I'm fuming over something Suzy said to me about my hair color?
Good point Kiffin!
The Lord's Prayer is found in John 17.
The other is a model to help teach the disciples how to pray.-
Loren, we had a pastor who used to make us play 'Bible Scavenger Hunt' on Wednesday nights. Everytime we had a few new people in the church he'd throw in 'The Lord's Prayer' and then explain that what they 'found' was the model prayer and that the Lord's Prayer was the prayer by Jesus in the Garden! That will always remain in my head!
Diane Tavegia (in Georgia too!)
p.s. Do you know Gayla??? http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00002599
She's also in Valdosta!
I pray the Lord's Prayer at least once a day. It is simply not true that it is necessarily a vain repetition. The more I pray it, the more meaning it has for me. We don't pray it at my church, but I wish we did. The following reasons convince me that Jesus intended us to pray that prayer:
1. The Jews prayed memorized prayers. In that context, they would have understood him to mean that they should pray those very words.
2. The evidence is conclusive that the early church thought Jesus intended them to pray this. First, The Didache, a very early Christian writing, shows us that the early believers prayed this prayer. Second, check out Metzger's note on the Doxology appended to the prayer. It shows the church early on used this as an actual prayer.
3. "Our Father," not "My Father." Jesus intended the congregation to join together and pray these words, just as Jews joined together in prayer in all of their worship.
It's interesting to note that those who say this should be a model prayer don't use it as such. It's totally ignored. I believe the opposition is a reactionary one. To characterize the use of the prayer as Catholic or Liberal is poor argumentation. First, it's false. Second, it's guilt by association.
A great joy I have is hearing my daughter pray the Lord's Prayer. She knew it since she was two years old, not by trying to memorize it, but simply by having heard me pray it.
The issue itself isn't that important, but it's unchristian to slander those who use the Lord's Prayer as though they were liberal or Catholic.
The real issue with the "vain repetition" is whether or not the worshippers have been born again by the Spirit of God. ANY worship done by the unregenerate is vain. In churches where tradition has buried the proclamation of the Gospel, where heresy has offended the Holy Spirit to the point where He has departed, where people live in sin and just go through the motions of worship, then all prayer, all praise, all liturgy of any kind is vain. The problem is not the Lord's Prayer or the liturgy, for that matter. (That is, unless the liturgy itself conveys false doctrine, such as the Roman Catholic mass.) It's vital that we identify the real problem here.