The Lords Table +1Cor 11:27-34

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Scott_Bushey, Mar 13, 2002.

  1. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey
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    Curious to everyones take on this piece of scripture.

    1 Cor 11:27-34

    Who do you believe this passage of scripture is referencing in regards to the warning towards "partaking" in an unworthy manner? Some churches teach that the reference is to the non believer, others to the body of Christ.

    What sayeth thee and why?

    In HIM,
    Scott Bushey
     
  2. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn
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    Who - a believer. Why - context.

    The letter is addressed to the church of God at Corinth, which group is addressed as saints. While we can understand that every single individual attached to a local church may not be saved, when a church as a whole is addressed, we must assume the writer is addressing them as saved people (unless something in the immediate context indicates otherwise). In Chapter 11, Paul is still addressing them as a church (e.g. vs. 16-20). So I would conclude that this is addressed to the church member (who is professed to be a believer, therefore assumed to be one).

    The word "unworthily" is an adverb, and modifies the verb (shall eat, shall drink, v. 27; eateth, drinketh, v.29). It refers to the manner in which we partake. Some people have incorrectly refrained from partaking of the Lord's supper because they think they are not "worthy". Well, in the strictest sense, none of us are worthy; that's not what Paul is addressing. The irreverent nature of the Corinthians' observance is noted in verses 18-22. That was the problem.
     
  3. Christopher

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    [I Corinthians 11:27] Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. [30] For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. [31] For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. [32] But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. [33] Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. [34] And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

    Scripture always interprets Scripture.

    Eating and drinking unworthily = Not discerning the Lord's body [v. 29]

    Any man [believer or unbeliever] who does not discern, that is, make a disctintion between the Lord's body and regular food, partakes of the Lord table unworthily [v. 34].

    The word "discern" also means "To recognize or comprehend mentally." This would apply to unbelievers who do not understand the significance of communion. Believers should be thoroughly taught the meaning and significance of the Lord's table before partaking thereof. Participants in communion must discern the Lord's body from simply eating.

    While Primitive Baptists do not practice the Roman heresy of transubstantiation, the bread is literally the body of Christ; and the wine is literally the blood of Christ, there needs to be a clear distinction. The Corinthian church had turned it into a meal [11:21]!
     
  4. Scott_Bushey

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    rlvaugh, Chris,
    There seems to be a slight disagreement between you both. One believes that the supper and the caution are to believers, the other states that it is a warning to both believer and unbeliever alike. I tend to side w/ rlvaughn for this reason:

    Scripture states:
    1 Cor 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
    1 Cor 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
    1 Cor 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
    1 Cor 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

    Verse 30, which is to the Corinthian church members, state *among you*.
    Verse 31, Believers are to judge each other, hold each other accountable. Doing this helps keep our walks upright. We share in the effort with support for those we love. Self evaluation that brings fruit of repentance forward is imperative, hence we will not be judged with the world on the last day.
    Verse 31 is clear. Harmonizing this with Hebrews chapter 12 proves we are sons of God. This type of chastening (the term), is something that God only does to his sons. His blessed chastening guarantee's our not being condemned with the world.

    In HIM,
    Scott Bushey
     
  5. Chet

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    Good post rlvaughn. I agree with you. Often I hear preachers ask everyone to bow their heads and concentrate real hard to eliminate the sin in their life, because God might just strike you dead for eating unworthy. I remember sharing with one of my pastors the contextual meaning of unworthly explaining the adverb ect... Next service, he did the same exact thing. :(

    If this was the case, we would be all dead.
     
  6. rlvaughn

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    Amen, Chet. If I believed that, I'd never partake of the Lord's supper.
     
  7. Son of Consolation

    Son of Consolation
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    Scott that was a good question!

    Amen Brother Robert! I am in agreement with your first post. In fact, you just got the very words out of my mouth. ;)

    Chet, I didn't know you can be such a humorous gentleman! But you are right of course in your statement. [​IMG]
     
  8. Scott_Bushey

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    Brothers Christopher, rlvaughn,
    I want to comment on what you have posted. Chris states: "Any man [believer or unbeliever] who does not discern, that is, make a disctintion between the Lord's body and regular food, partakes of the Lord table unworthily [v. 34]."

    I disagree with this line of thought in regards to the non believer partaking. The sinner is seperated from God by their sin. They are as lost, as lost can be. One cannot ascertain from this scripture or from any other scriptural application (as far as I know) that this can be discerned in this way. Is it a sin? If you believe this to be so, please support the claim. I believe that most of this rationale is due to present day theory. I do not believe you can support this from 1 Cor passage.

    1 Cor 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do proclaim the Lord's death till he come.

    The above verse verifies that those who are present here are *proclaimers*. Non believers do not proclaim Christ and His return.

    You also write: "The word "discern" also means "To recognize or comprehend mentally." This would apply to unbelievers who do not understand the significance of communion."

    With the utmost respect Chris, I believe you are pushing the envelope here. I agree that discernment can be an application elsewhere in scripture, in this case, I disagree because of what I've stated above. Believers do not proclaim anything.

    rivaughn writes: "Some people have incorrectly refrained from partaking of the Lord's supper because they think they are not "worthy". Well, in the strictest sense, none of us are worthy; that's not what Paul is addressing."

    I respond: rlvaughn, I agree that no one is *literally worthy*, but in Christ we are. Believers should be cautious in coming to the table with (sin) egg all over their face. Christ warns about leaving ones offering with sin not confessed.
    Matt 5:23-24 Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, ave your sacrifice there beside the altar. Go and be reconciled to that person. Then come and offer your sacrifice to God.

    Believers alike should have our house in order prior to our partaking. Verse 30 of 1 Cor threatens even death amongst some; "Many sleep".


    In Him,
    Scott Bushey
     
  9. rlvaughn

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    Scott, I doubt we differ very much on this. To form a little frame of reference - the people with whom I have been personally familiar who thought they were not "worthy" to partake of the Lord's supper could never "feel worthy" regardless of how good they lived or how much they repented and confessed. They had to come to understand that this verse was not discussing their personal justification or sanctification (that is immediately, certainly they are involved), but rather their specific motives for coming to the table and observing. Unconfessed sin does not change a person's standing with God. Our worthiness to which you refer comes by our standing justified in Christ. But I do believe and expect that coming to the Lord's table with deliberate and unconfessed sin, and no heart of contrition, could be coming "unworthily" - coming in a manner that violates the table. But I would hold out on the fine point that it does not immediately relate to one's "worthiness" (maybe this is splitting hairs, and I hope I have not belabored the point, and that I have possibly made a point). Perhaps the Corinthians themselves stand to make the point - they were identified by Paul as saints, but their behavior seemed to indicate all but that. Certainly there was sin involved not only in the lives of the Corinthians, but even in their manner of coming to the Lord's table.
     
  10. Scott_Bushey

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    Amen brother rlvaughn!
    IN HIS grip.......
    Solo Christo,
    Scott Bushey &lt;smile&gt;
     
  11. tyndale1946

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    I've been in the Primitive Baptist Church for 34 years and during all this time have been in many closed communion services. Our communion services consist of unleavened bread and wine, and we also wash each others feet, men with men and women with women. Just wanted to clear this up for all of you who are not of our faith.

    When I go into a communion service I am in no way worthy to partake of the supper the Lord set up for his disciples. The only way I am worthy is in Christ Jesus who stood in my room and stead, and paid the debt I couldn't pay.

    If I looked at this as a meal I would starve! I don't mean to poke fun at this solemn service but the unleavened bread is broken and it represents the broken body of Christ who was broken for us.
    The wine represents the blood that was shed for us. Both of these come in such small amounts and cannot be compared to a meal. As far as the practice in the Corinthian church I have no knowledge of and will comment when I have the facts.

    I might also mention that the Primitive Baptist practice closed communion and only those of like precious faith are allowed to partake. We also wash feet but not all of churches do as it is not considered part of the communion service but I do!... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ March 26, 2002, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  12. Sularis

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    Is EVERY single person in your church saved?

    I pray to God that the answer is No.

    In that we then know your church is growing or perhaps you dont allow people into your fellowship unless they pass through hoops *ewwww*

    The warning is to everyone who makes up the church.

    The warning is if we drink or eat unworthily we can be cursed either with illness or death, suffering or plenty of other bad thingies. You mean you dont repent of your sins before you touch the cup and bread, and if its a repetitive sin, until its been conquered or at least far more under control

    And Christopher if you dont believe the heresy of transubstantiation how can the bread and wine become the body and blood LITERALLY as you post.

    However I go for the more consubstantiation kinda viewpoint.
     
  13. Chet

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    rlvaughn said
    This is very true. What is the root cause of this? I believe that people fail to understand where they stand in the eyes of God. As Christians, we are called saints, we are complete and we are made righteous . All of our sins have been paid for, past-present-future. There is absolutely nothing we could do to somehow merit more righteousness, merit more completeness. Yet many pastors feel the need to ride the sin issue, constantly bringing up sin, the very thing we are now dead to. Perhaps this is due to an idea that Pastors feeling that they need to be lord over peoples lives, not realizing this is an unconsciously thought.

    To illustrate my point, let us use a person who is a bum, living in the street with no home, no clothing, food or money. Every day he sorts though various dumpsters trying to find some food, and every night he finds some place to lay his head to keep warm. One day a very wealthy man picked the bum up off the street, took the bum to his mansion and feed the bum, cleaned the bum up and gave him a new suit. Then the wealthy man told the bum that from now on he would have this every day! The bum would no longer need to live his old lifestyle. The bum could eat off of the buffet prepared just for him. The wealthy man gave the bum his own section of the mansion with a big bed and a closet full of new clothes. The wealthy man gave the bum a large bank account, and a new limo with his own personal driver. A brand new life!! Yet how many think this bum would be found in the streets searching the trash again for food? At what point in my story should I stop calling the bum a bum? Yet that is how we live the Christian life. And that is how we are continually dwelling on our old life, and this passage in Corinthians is used to do that. We were the bum. We are now the wealthy man.

    Amen.
    Amen!!
    Here is where I disagree slightly, here is why. If you mean unconfessed sin = unregenerate then I agree. If you mean unconfessed sin = A Christian who did not confess their sins to God and are somehow removed from him because of this act, then I disagree. Our verbal confession of sin is not going to change any standing with God. This then leads into another entire discussion on confession. I believe that this is a practice by Christians by miss-use of 1 John 1:9 resulting in a continual false conviction that we are somehow not right with God. Thus, causing us to eat out of that trash. For a discussion I had on this here is a link:

    1 John 1:9 - Forever Forgiven

    God Bless!!

    [ March 27, 2002, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Chet ]
     
  14. tyndale1946

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    First of all the Primitive Baptist are the strictest order of baptist on this board. We observe closed communion and only those of our same faith and order can partake. If you came to our church you could watch our communion service but could not partake unless you were a member of our church or a sister church.

    I set up the way we hold communion service and I did not say you had to agree with it as we also wash feet. What other Baptist denomination on this board wash feet? Its in the bible why don't you do it? The Lord washed the disciples feet are you better than the Lord?

    I see nothing wrong with kneeling at the feet of my brethren and washing their feet. I feel so unworthy doing it and also having someone to wash mine. This is not an act of cleanliness but an act of love of one brother for the other and unless you have done it you can't possibly understand the solemnity of the experience.

    John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

    2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

    3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

    4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

    5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

    6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?

    7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.

    8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.

    9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.

    10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

    11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

    12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

    13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

    14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

    15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

    16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

    17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

    Here is a link to the library archive and my name there was Adam1946 on the Primitive Baptisthttp://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=40&t=000003&p=

    This is Baptist Only forum and I am speaking to Baptist or those who Baptize not sprinkle. The Lord left an example for us to follow of washing our brethrens feet why don't you or won't you... Brother Glen :confused:

    [ March 27, 2002, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  15. rsr

    rsr
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    Bro. Glen:

    Some other Baptists also practice footwashing; I had a friend who was Freewill Baptist, and his church practiced it.

    Would you like to start a new thread on how footwashing fell out of favor among most denominations? Maybe in Baptist history? I'd be interested in knowing if it was practiced early on and then was disused or if it was never widely considered a requirement.
     
  16. Daniel David

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    Glen, if it is really something we should do, why isn't it found anywhere else in the N.T., especially in Acts? You are not the strickest Baptist either (as if that means anything).
     
  17. Doc Yankum

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    Bro. Glen

    I am a member of a Missionary Baptist Church and have observed foot washing services at a Primitive Church. It was a very moving, spiritual act of humility. Nothing more. Footwashing was never meant to be an ordinance in the church. There is nothing about the practice that shows the shedding of Christ's blood and the death, burial and ressurection of the savior which is the basis of our salvation.

    Also you were off base when you said the Primitives were the strictest of the Baptists. Our Church practices closed communion and restricts participation to the members of our own church. The way you practice is called close communion.
     
  18. Scott_Bushey

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    Hi Chet,
    You write:
    "I believe that this is a practice by Christians by miss-use of 1 John 1:9 resulting in a continual false conviction that we are somehow not right with God."

    Scott responds:
    Chet, The question is then, can believers come to the table in an unworthy manner, and if so, what is the extent of the unworthiness? Is our standing always *right* with God. Our sins are surely forgiven, cast as far as the East is from the West, but yet there is a command to confess.
    Ephesians chapter 1 states we are *sealed* in the Holy Spirit upon belief, yet the Apostle exhorts us to be *filled*(continuous action).
    We are forgiven and have been brought near by the blood of Christ, yet God chastens us as sons. Why does God chasten us? Is it not a response to our sin? Or is it not truly a "chastening"? If someone we know is involved in a blatant sin, are you implying that if he hides iniquity in his heart God will hear him as he prays at the table?
    David was surely a man after Gods own heart and yet, look at the level of his transgressions. Are you implying that at his worst, his fellowship with the most high had not been tainted to some extent?

    God does not appreciate rebellious sin.

    Glenn,
    Foot washing is ok w/ me........I wouldn't be dogmatic about it's requirements though. I've never been in a church where it was a practice. But I apprceiate your love for it as Christ did initiate it for a reason. Possibly it was to show the essence of servanthood, not the actuality of literally washing feet. As it has been mentioned, nowhere in the NT accounts is it established practice.

    I once met a man in California whose church held to the "Holy Kiss". Men kissing men and the woman exchanging kisses amongst themselves.

    In HIM,
    Scott Bushey
     
  19. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    I would like preachtheword to prove that Primitive Baptist are not the strictest baptist on the board in doctrine and practice... Brother Glen :confused:
     
  20. rlvaughn

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    Chet, let me clarify. I don't really mean either, and especially not that failure to confess sins removes us from God in any way other than possibly from good fellowship. What I meant was only that a cavalier attitude toward sin may go toward affecting the manner in which we observe the Lord's supper, which I think shows up very much in the Corinthian church situation.
     

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