The Lord's table

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by freeatlast, Oct 17, 2011.

  1. freeatlast

    freeatlast
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    During the Lord''s table Baptist churches usually have us bow our heads so as to examine ourselves before each element then the one leading after a little time says a prayer. What exactly do you think most people think that means to examine themselves and what do you think most are doing? What are they examining and why?
     
  2. revmwc

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    I don't think of others I think of myself and whether I have something to check up on, not my to be concerned about them.

    If churches would teach a new Chritians class for the New converts this should be one section of that lesson.
     
  3. freeatlast

    freeatlast
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    What do you mean something to check up on?
     
  4. Tom Bryant

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    I ask our people to ask the Holy Spirit to reveal areas of sin that they have not confessed, if there are problems between them and another believer and to spend some time thinking about Jesus and his death for us. And to make certain they judge themselves. (1 Corinthians 11:31)
     
  5. freeatlast

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    So Tom let me ask you two questions. 1) If you did not ask them to do anything, you just took the table do you believe some would get sick or die as pointed out in scripture? 2) After you ask and if they fail to do that and take the table anyway do you believe they will get sick or die?
     
  6. Tom Bryant

    Tom Bryant
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    I'll answer #2, since i can't remember any time i didn't talk about it. I believe there is that possibility. Apparently sickness or death happened in Corinth, but even if someone died on the way home after the Lord's Supper, I wouldn't be able to say or even think that God had judged them.
     
  7. freeatlast

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    I agree it could happen in fact I believe it will and does happen when the intent of the passage is violated. However I don't believe that what is being done today in the warning in most churches is what the passage is speaking about. If it was there would be a whole lot of sick or dead Chrsitians.
     
  8. Tom Bryant

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    I think there is more to it than just sin and wrong relationships. I think it also includes coming lightly to that moment not understanding what we are rembering.

    So what do you think the passage is dealing with?
     
  9. freeatlast

    freeatlast
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    While I do agree that we should never take the table if we have something in our life that does not meet up to the calling we have in the Lord I do not believe the passage is focused on personal sins such as being angry, lust, or even things like if we have lied or committed adultery. If it was then there would be a pile of Christians at the doctors and many in the morgue after every service.

    Also may I say we do not have to even know what we are doing wrong to receive this judgment of sickness or death. Those at Corinth did not know. That is why Paul is explaining it to them why so many are sick and dead.
    I think the passage with the judgment is speaking about taking the table in a manner that is dishonoring. It is not about our personal sins, not that they are not dishonoring, but they are different. It is how we take the table. The rich at Corinth were coming together for a love feast and eating up all the food before the poor got there and yet calling what they did the Lord's table. Notice how Paul rebukes them for not eating at home.
    The table needs to be held in high regard. It is not something to joke about or take lightly. Doing so can bring on those judgments.

    Now do I know of anyone who this has happened to. Yes, me. Although not for the same reason as those at Corinth I did disregard the table and I immediately fell sick on the spot.

    Here is what I did. I was visiting a cousin some years and and it was around Christmas. On the Sunday before Christmas I convinced her and her granddaughter to attend church. My cousin is not a Christian. So we went that snowy morning to the local church. We sat through Sunday school and then entered into the church service. It just so happened that morning was the morning they were going to have the Lord's table.


    It was an open communion church and this left me with a question within myself. Should I take the table or not? Not because I had done anything wrong, or was not a member, but because I was with my lost cousin and her granddaughter and I felt if I take it she might also and I would be leading her into dishonoring the table. I knew I should not take of it and just let it pass and it would pass us all. Instead I chose to take the table and hope she would not, but she did and as soon as she took the elements I got sick and was sick for the rest of the day. The sickness left me at the end of the day as fast as it came on me and all day long the Lord reminding me what I did. I could not even eat the big dinner she had prepared for me.


    So I am convinced, not because of my experience, but because of what the passage is dealing with that the judgments come not because of some personal sin but because of not taking the table in a worthy manner what ever that may be.
     
  10. Tom Bryant

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    Interesting story. Couldn't it be both? The Corinthians church was certainly full of sin. If the Corinthian church was unaware of their sin it was because they had not listened to the Holy Spirit's inward conviction.
     
  11. freeatlast

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    I would not rule out both, but like I said if it is personal sin then there would be a whole lot of sick people after the table in many churches and we do not see that.
    Also in reading the letter to Corinth I think it is clear that they did not understand sin especially Corinth being what it was. First they did not have the luxury of a completed bible that we have. Second Paul says I cannot speak to you except as to those needing milk. While they should have known, for some reason they did not. Now about could they have just ignored what they knew? No. Not if they are saved based on 1 John. If you notice in the book of Cor, even Paul is surprised at their behavior. He felt they had been given enough instruction to know. However what he does is give them the benefit of the doubt and explains things to them again. The only problem is it must not have took so in what we call the second letter he questions their salvation in the last chapter
    So with all this I think the main issue with the table in taking it in a worthy manner is, not one of being flippant, or disrespectful, or without regards to the holiness of what it represents.
     
  12. HankD

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    Good analysis (IMO) FAL, the tares (Matthew 13) have had multiple centuries to grow up in the church and infect the wheat.

    Tares (darnel) are known to have a naturally occuring fungi (rust) which can also infect the wheat.

    Yes Paul questions their standing but notice it is the last resort not the first. It is the endeavor of each of us to prove ourselves.

    Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.

    You seem obsessed with the personal sin of others (not necessarily a bad thing).

    Jesus has said to leave the tares alone and let then grow up with the wheat. That may be hard for you to take but that is what He said.

    Matthew 13
    Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
    29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
    30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.​

    Stop and think, since all things are possible with God some of these tares may eventually come to salvation:​

    2 Timothy 2
    24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
    25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.​

    And in fact you (in your own way) may be doing just that.​

    Let's say you go to a doctor with an ugly festering boil on your face.​

    What is better to hear?​

    "Oh, disgusting! How did you let this happen to yourself!!"​

    or​

    "let me help you get rid of that thing"​

    To cultivate is better than to root up.

    I think that is the message of 2 Timothy 2:24-26 and (IMO) the closer you/we come to emulating the virtues required in that passage the more the Lord will work through us as we await His return from heaven. ​

    James 5
    7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
    8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
    9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
    10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
    11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

    HankD​
     
    #12 HankD, Oct 20, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2011
  13. Aaron

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    :thumbs: Exactly right.
     
  14. HankD

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    This seems to be a recurring theme in the NT:

    Hebrews 5:10
    11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
    12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
    13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
    14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.​

    Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
    4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
    5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?​

    1 John 2
    24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
    25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
    26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
    27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
    28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
    29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.​


    Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
    2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
    3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
    4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
    5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

    HankD​
     
    #14 HankD, Oct 20, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2011

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