The Manifestation of the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Thomas Helwys, May 21, 2013.

  1. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys
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    One member continues to use this term and declares that those of us who do not speak in tongues, or have a supposed HS baptism separate from conversion, are in "unbelief". That word and "manifestation" are her favorite catch-words.

    It is the height of spiritual arrogance to make that charge, which by her definition applies to all those from the beginning of the church until now who have suffered and given their lives to spread the gospel, including the well-known like Wesley, William Carey, and those unknown. According to her, all of them and us are in unbelief and have not believed in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. This is an insult and an outrage! She is spitting on the graves of all those faithful Christians all down through the ages.

    I'll tell you how to determine who has experienced the manifestation of the Holy Spirit: It is those who are bearing the FRUIT of the Spirit! And I don't see any fruit among spiritually arrogant, spiritually elitist Charismatics! Thus, any so-called manifestation might be from a spirit, but it is not the Spirit of God.

    So, how do you know if something is a true manifestation of the Holy Spirit? First and foremost, it must line up with scripture. Charismatic/Pentecostal doctrine does not. The, the Holy Spirit produces fruits of the spirit. Last time I checked, spiritual arrogance and elitism were not on the list.
     
    #1 Thomas Helwys, May 21, 2013
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  2. awaken

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    SInce I believe this thread is directed toward me I will comment and hopefully leave it at that!

    The Fruit of the Spirit evident in our life is evidence of our relationship with the Lord. The gifts of the Spirit are what He does, the fruit is who He is. The more we are with Him, and the more we see Him, the more and more like Him we become.

    The unbelief I speak of has nothing to do with salvation! It is unbelief about a certain doctrine that I believe in!

    I have great respect for those men that preached Jesus and won many to Christ! I have a great respect for the Baptist church for the truth concerning the birth, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    What I missed is the power to live out that salvation! Faith in what the Word says about the Holy Spirit and how he works today!

    What most see as arrogance...I see as defense on what others accuse me of!
     
  3. Thomas Helwys

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    You don't believe what the Word says about the Holy Spirit. You believe what some occultists from 113 years ago said that the Word said, which it does not.

    The unbelief I have is an unbelief about YOUR beliefs, views, doctrines, practices, and experiences, none of which are supported by scripture.
     
  4. awaken

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    Even though we do not believe the same....I do not hold ill will toward you! It is that simple!
     
  5. Baptist Believer

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    Yes. The fruit of the Spirit is something that comes as we intentionally take steps to align ourselves with God’s Kingdom and receive His empowering grace which naturally results in the transformation of our character.

    The gifts of the Spirit are part of God’s “grace gifts” (charismata), which are given to all believers. They are very powerful and require spiritual maturity and wisdom to be used most effectively. The gifts are distributed according to the temperament and calling of the individual believer, as well as the needs of the age and culture. No one will have all of the gifts and there is no single gift that one can use as evidence of the empowering of the Holy Spirit. As Paul teaches, not all prophesy and not all speak in tongues. People who are not believers in Christ can be used by God to perform mighty works and miracles (Matthew 15:17-23), but the real evidence of whether or not they come from God is the fruit of their lives – that is, the fruit of the Spirit.

    Yes, but the gifts are not what produces the fruit. The gifts are works of God that we have the privilege of participating in for the purposes of ministry to the church and the world.

    We become like Him through the process of spiritual formation, that is, intentionally aligning ourselves with God’s Kingdom and place ourselves in the position of receiving His empowering grace for character transformation. We cannot change our character by ourselves, nor can we change by simply trying to do it. It would be like most of us deciding we are going to run a marathon tomorrow morning. We can try all we want, but our body will not be able to take us to the finish line without months of discipline and training. Or we could decide we are going to speak French. No matter how hard I try, I will only be able to speak a few words of French through simple effort. If I really want to learn how to communicate effectively in French, I am going to have to undertake a program of learning vocabulary and syntax – plus lots of practice – in order to gain proficiency. In the spiritual realm, we must understand a program of training – doing things in our power in order to prepare us for the things we cannot currently do. In the course of training, we will receive grace from God and experience transformation of character so that our natural reaction/habit to do evil will be transformed into a natural habit of doing good.

    God is more interested in the transformation of your life and character than the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit in your life. As I mentioned before, the gifts do not give you any power for character transformation, they are power for ministry to others. When your character is transformed, God will be able to trust you to use His gifts more effectively than ever before.
     
  6. DHK

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    There is no such thing as "The Manifestation," a term widely misused by the Charismatics. It comes from 1Cor.12:7

    1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

    But that is what the KJV means. I suppose that they like these words that they don't fully understand. In another translation the same verse is translated this way:

    (CEV) The Spirit has given each of us a special way of serving others.

    Isn't this true today? The Holy Spirit gives to each one of us special ways of serving others, and those ways are not necessarily listed in chapter 12 of 1Corinthians. They are manifested as the Holy Spirit sees fit. The Charismatic wants to confine this to tongues and perhaps the other sign gifts that are specifically mentioned in 1Corinthians 12.
     
  7. awaken

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    I have no problem with this post!!
    I believe that we have to yield to the Spirit before he can change our character! The fruit is in us at salvation...but they will not come forth until we yield!
    I also am in agreement with the statement in bold! They must go hand in hand to benefit His kingdom!
     
  8. awaken

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    In context of chapter 12 the nine listed is what is being discussed. I agree that the nature of God/fruit/who he is can also be manifested through us but in context of chapter 12 it is the power gifts...what He does through us!
    I like the KJV better...
    "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal"
    We have gone over the word manifestation many times. I will clarify it once more!

    The divine nature of God can not be detected by the five senses unless it is manifested. No one can see, hear, smell, taste or touch it until it is manifested through someones life!

    For something to be manifested it is brought forth into evidence for us to detect by our five senses!

    Manifestation means "a making visible or obervable."

    I have given the example of a light bulb..
    Electric energy in a light bulb is manifested in the form of light and heat.

    In chicken pox...
    This disease is manifested by a rash. We can not see the virus but we can see the manifestation of the disease.

    ANother example...
    If I give you an army knife, they have nine different functions that can be used for good. That one knife has many ways to manifest. Similarly, the one gift God gives each believer is the Holy Spirit, which can be manifested in nine ways (1 Cor. 12).

    I agree that they are manifested as the Holy Spirit sees fit! All of that God gives is to edify and for the good!
     
  9. Yeshua1

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    Even in the Apostolic times, see corinth, the gifts of the Spirit operating were NOT a sign of a christina having power, fruit, witnessing etc

    paul addressed them as acting CARNAL, not as powerful saints winning souls and living fruitful lives!

    they were arrogant, looking down on others, thoughthad special revelations, super saints...

    WAIT that does describe modern Charasma!
     
  10. Yeshua1

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    Some were JUST for the transistion era of the Apostles, others for now!

    Why focus on a gift like tongues, least of all the gifts? why not serving, or encoraging?

    maybe because who;e ministries have beenbuilt on bogus tongues/signs/wonders?

    Not many want to have serving gift, nor giving!
     
    #10 Yeshua1, May 22, 2013
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  11. DHK

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    This is where you are wrong. You want to liken all the gifts to the showy and even carnal gifts like tongues. The Corinthian church was using the gift of tongues to show off; being carnal about it.

    You dismiss some of the other gifts that were not so "visible."
    Mentioned among these gifts was the "gift of helps," a person given to helping others. How is this so visible from others from others who have that kind of nature that they love to help other people. In fact many unsaved people are very helpful people.

    Then there is the gift of administration, another gift that is not so visible. I know a pastor who is very gifted in this area, so much so that his gift in this are may excel his gift in preaching, though that is not to say he is not a poor preacher--he is not.
    However he is a tremendous administrator, having the ability to adminstrate a large church, a Christian day school, and some other para-church organizations that fall under the umbrella of his church. He may even be writing some books as well.

    However there are many unsaved that are very good administrators also. Look around. You cannot deny that. This is a gift given in the 12th chapter of 1Corinthians, but it just isn't one of those showy gifts that the Charismatics but at the forefront of everything like tongues--a gift that Paul said was the least of all the gifts. It was the least important.
     
  12. awaken

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    The validity of "administration of the Holy Spirit" never depends on the spiritual maturity of believers in the church or their conduct. It is an independent truth regardless of how God's people live.
    This is like saying God's salvation is not important because some of his people sin and act in an unrighteous way from time to time. The salvation given by Jesus Christ is true, even if no one on earth believes in it! The same is true with the gifts fo the Spirit, including tongues!
     
  13. awaken

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    The Corinthian church was being corrected! Not forbidding! No one is speaking of showing off!

    What is your point here?? Unsaved people can manifest learned behavior...but they can not manifest what they do not have! Lets keep everything in context! 1 Cor. 12 is speaking of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit! Mainly the 9 gifts!

    Yes! their gift is manifested...by doing what they are called to do! Yes! some are more visible..what is your point?

    Again your point? A manifestation is still a manifestation? Some manifest their flesh..some the power of the Holy Spirit...some a learned behavior etc. I do not get what you are trying to get across!
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    "points' are that NOT all of those gifts are operating today in the church, and that the Charasmatic movements majors on Gifts that are not for today, while neglecting the ones that are!
     
  15. Thomas Helwys

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    One "gift" that most Charismatic preachers have, the ones on TBN and such especially, is the gift of taking: "Send in your $1000 seeds, and I'll be more than glad to take them. They will help me buy another Mercedes and private jet." "Hola comba ke ba la tomga susta". Hallelujah!

    See, I've got it down, man. I could be a Charismatic televangelist tomorrow. It's a learned behavior.
     
  16. awaken

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    Where is the neglect? Not in our church!
     
  17. awaken

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    Speaking of a learned behavior! Seems like you have got several down!
     
  18. Thomas Helwys

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    I can respond to false doctrine and spiritual arrogance. I have had a lot of practice.
     
  19. Baptist Believer

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    I think I've heard all of the arguments that the manifestation gifts (1 Corinthians 12:7-11) are not operational in the church today, but they are all lacking strong scriptural support - usually relying on a strange interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:10 which alleges that "completeness" or "perfect" is the closing of the canon of scripture. That's an enormous stretch without any strong support.

    I have personally had the following gifts manifested in my life in ministry:
    - word of wisdom
    - word of knowledge (most frequent manifestation in my life)
    - healing (a couple of times)
    - miraculous powers (commanding the demonic)
    - prophecy (in this context, speaking a word from God directly to a specific situation)
    - discernment (the second most frequent manifestation)

    I have witness at least one incident of speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues that I am convinced was legitimate on July 4, 1988 at Stewart Beach on Galveston Island. Almost every other example of tongue speaking I have heard was not legitimate in my opinion.

    It is presumptuous to say that the manifestation gifts have ceased without strong scriptural support and with testimony from other believers that they are still active.

    Sure, you can always point out bad examples in every movement. I know of a large number of vocational evangelists who emotionally manipulate their audiences to try to get people to make decisions "for Jesus", but that doesn't mean that the gospel in invalid or that everyone who shares their faith is a manipulator. You need to deal with real people in real situations instead of just stereotypes.
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    WHAT revelation would the Lord have to us that was in addition to his bible though?

    Were the healings done in response to prayers, or thru "gifts to heal?"
     

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