Featured The Manifestation of the Holy Spirit

For very specific issues dealing with specific people and situations.

You act as if they are different things. God does the healing according to His will and power and the person is just a conduit of that power. In the situations I am referring to, we laid hands on the person and prayed and they were healed.

One specific instance was in March 1987 in a hospital emergency room in Torrington, Wyoming after the doctor said the woman was not going to live more than an hour. The woman's daughter begged us to pray that her mother would live. The pastor of the local church I was serving that week and I each held one of the woman's hands and asked God to heal her. Within 15 minutes, the woman was alert and her vital signs had returned to normal. She was released from the hospital about six hours later after the doctors decided that she was truly healthy again.

It wasn't because we were especially virtuous and spiritually advanced: the pastor - whom I had just met that day - was a sexual predator and pedophile and is still wanted by the FBI. I was still fairly young in my faith and had a lot to learn.

 

The HS can answer ALL questions in His Bible though, and the healings were done by the Lord in response to prayers, we still hold that God can do that, just that there are none walking around with gift to heal as Apsotles had!

 

Does the Spirit tell you through the scripture where to find a person who is in crisis? Does the Spirit tell you through scripture which path of ministry to take when there are many good things you can do? Does the Spirit tell you through scripture when to be silent and when to speak to a particular situation?

Jesus clearly teaches that His followers will recognize His voice and He will speak to them. See John 10:4, 8, 16, 25-29.

The Old and New Testaments are full of incidents where God speaks to His people. Why do you assume that God has stopped talking and has left us to our own devices? Where is the scriptural support for that teaching?

Yes, so what is your point? All healings are done through communication with and in the power of the Holy Spirit. Even Jesus healed through the power of the Holy Spirit under direction of the Father.

Then what is the issue here?

You don't seem to understand even the very basics of healing. The apostles (or anyone else), did not have the power of healing within themselves. The manifestation gifts are available to any believe according to the will of God for the moment and situation. The power does not reside in the person through whom the gift is exercised, but in the Holy Spirit. Any person (you, me, or DHK) can be a channel through whom God heals, if we are open to hearing the guidance of the Spirit and have faith to act in the power of the Spirit. You need to read John 5 carefully, especially verses 19 and 30 in the context of the chapter.

 

I have seen God heal, and I have seen God heal miraculously. The Lord gave the church instructions on specific cases for healing in James 5. However, most healings are simply a result of prayer in this day and age.

No one today has the "gift of healing." Peter demonstrated the "gift of healing" in Acts 5:16. There thousands of people came to him from all the cities round about Jerusalem, and Peter healed them ALL. There were no exceptions. He healed the paraplegics, the lepers, the ones that were very obviously sick and infirm. They were miraculous, instantaneous, and immediate healings. He healed ALL who came to him.

There is no one, not one, who has that gift today. It has passed. No one has been able to demonstrate that gift since the first century.

 

No. Peter didn't heal anyone.

God healed them all, according to His will, to validate the message of Peter and the other leaders of the infant church.

In the instance you cite, that seems to be the case. But remember, even Jesus did not always heal everyone (see John 5:2-9 - Jesus healed only one man - and in Matthew 13:58, Jesus could not do many miracles in Nazareth because of their unbelief).

Healing is always a result of the sovereign purpose and will of God. A person (even Jesus) did not choose who gets healed. Even Jesus took direction from the Father and healed people by the power of the Holy Spirit (read all of John 5 carefully and notice that Jesus says a couple of times that He can't do anything of His own power).

Your argument is built on a straw man misunderstanding of healing and how the Spirit works in human affairs. I would agree that no human being has the power to heal on a whim apart from the express intent and action of God, but that's not what I'm talking about. I am talking about the biblical model.

Most of the arguments against spiritual gifts and for cessationism make the fatal and heretical assumption that the Holy Spirit is some kind of force, not a Person. Scripture teaches that the Spirit is a Person, and a Person has will, intention, ability, thought and emotion. The Spirit is not a formula or process, so you can easily get into trouble when you try to systematize what the Spirit will and will not do - especially when you don't have strong scriptural support. That's why in the Book of Acts you see the Spirit giving tongues to those in the Upper Room (with tongues of fire, symbolizing that believers are now the Temple of God), to the Samaritans (without the manifestation of tongues) only when Peter and John came to lay hands of them (remember, they wanted to call down fire on the Samaritans previously, and the Spirit did not come upon the Samaritans until Peter and John were there to witness it so that they would know that God had accepted the Samaritans). Then the Spirit came upon the family of Cornelius and his friends even before Peter had finished his sermon (probably because Peter was going to tell them to become Jews and be circumcised - this incident figured prominently in the Jerusalem Council). Then the Spirit came upon the disciples of John with the manifestation of tongues (Acts 19:1-7) after they were baptized and Paul laid hands on them. Those disciples of John had an incomplete message/revelation and they learned about Jesus and that there was a Holy Spirit.

There are many people today who have an incomplete message of the gospel. They have accepted the light that they have been given and God is in the process of redeeming them through additional revelation and action in their lives. I believe that for some, there will be an additional experience of the Holy Spirit that is often described as "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" which will confirm their greater understanding of their place in the Kingdom of God, but it is not for everyone. Those who have had stronger doctrinal teaching (as well as those whose temperaments and life experience do not need it) will likely not have that experience. Both are good and honorable as long as it is scripturally-balanced. The name-calling, claims of heresy and personal attacks are uncalled for in my opinion. We need to recognize that when we are dealing with God, we are dealing with Persons, not processes, and Persons do not often fit our expectations. Jesus was often unpredictable in His earthly ministry and He still mystifies us by some of the things He did and said - and the church has had 2,000 years to think about it!

 

the only name calling happens we those claiming to be walking in same sign gifts the Apsotles had to shut up or show, and they cannot prove and evidence their claims, so they started name calling, saying we walk in unbelief, ignorance, darknes, deny the HS etc!

 

We all know that and agree with that. Is this a request that you want me to choose my words better?
Look at the verse:
Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
To get the subject or the antecedent of the verse one has to go right back to verse 12:
Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
Who was healing: "By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders" (done).
I suppose the Holy Spirit lied here, did not have an accurate choice of words, or maybe Luke misspoke and the Holy Spirit inspired it any way.
Your criticism is unwarranted.

Again it is you that are wrong here and seem to be criticizing for the sake of criticizing. Note carefully: Jesus healed all that came to him for healing. He never refused anyone.

Jesus did not refuse anyone who requested to be healed. Over and above that he healed some others as well. That is grace. The former is mercy.

And that proves????

No you are not. The subject here is "the gifts of the Spirit."
Look at the title of the thread: "The Manifestation of the Spirit." You are presenting your own ideas which seem to be off topic. The word "manifestation" comes from 1Cor.12:7, following which the gifts of the Spirit are listed. Your model of healing is not listed there.

An example of the gift of healing is given in Acts 5:16, where Peter healed ALL who came to him, no one excepted. That is a demonstration of the gift of healing. No one has that gift today. God heals, but no one has "the gift of healing," today. The two are very much different.

Show me a post where anyone here would have given you that idea. Either that or recant your statement. It is a false accusation.

Everyone here believes that.

Again, a false accusation. Show me a post where people here believe what you just stated. Keep in mind there are many cessationists here, so you should be able to find someone who believes the garbage you just posted.

And so??

That is not what the Bible teaches. Once a person understands the gospel he has the opportunity to accept it or reject it. No "baptism of the Spirit" will confirm to an unbeliever a greater understanding. That in itself is heresy.

Who are you to make such judgments of character, and where do you get this from Scripture?

Chapter and verse please.

The church did not display any of the gifts of the Spirit (so-called) for 1900 years. History is silent about them. Then in 1905 this strange movement, now known as the Charismatic movement started up imitating the true gifts which were manifested in the first century. They are not the true gifts. They are fraudulent. Like I said, no one can do what Peter did. No one has the gift of miracles. No one has the genuine gift of speaking foreign languages. These are all frauds. The gifts have ceased. It is sad to see people deceive themselves. But we live in the last days, when the Bible said that people would deceive themselves and deceive others to do likewise.

 

You seem to believe that the sign gifts (manifestations) are something that an individual Christian can generate at will. Even Jesus did only what He saw His Father doing (that is, He followed His Father's guidance) according to the power of the Spirit.

(1) In essence, you are asking a fellow Christian to do something Jesus could/would not do in the flesh.
(2) How do you propose that someone "show" the sign gifts to you through the internet? Perhaps the Lord will consent to it for your sake. Those who know me have experienced some of the sign gifts.

If you deny the work of the Holy Spirit (or call the work of the Holy Spirit evil), you are treading on dangerous spiritual ground.

 

No. It is important to ensure that you understand the distinction since I have long heard the foolish claim that “if anyone had the gift of healing today, they should be running through the hospitals healing everyone.”

I’m pointing out that God is the one who heals – according to His will, not the will of the person(s) through whom the power is manifested.

Hardly. I pointed out that that God uses people as channels of His power and grace. You just missed the point.

Nonsense. John 5 clearly states that there was a great number of people waiting around the Pool of Siloam to be healed, but Jesus went to only one man to heal him. Jesus didn’t heal everyone.

Now you are technically correct that Jesus healed everyone WHO CAME TO HIM, but that is different than the point I am making. In the context of John 5, where Jesus explains that He does what He sees the Father doing, He is led to heal only one man.

Yes. It was a validation of His unique role in human affairs. The healings in the early church demonstrated that they were continuing the work of Jesus. As the church became established, the quantity of healings diminished, but that doesn’t mean that they have stopped or that the gift is no longer operative. In pioneer areas, God may heal more frequently than in the Western world to authenticate the message of the missionaries.

You shouldn’t place a higher burden on the disciples of Jesus than the one on Jesus Himself. A student is not above His teacher.

I’m sorry for quoting and referencing the Gospel of John. I didn’t realize that you reject it and don’t consider its teachings to have any relationship to 1 Corinthians.

That’s a false distinction. Jesus manifested many gifts of the Spirit and did His miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit. We are called to live in the power of the Holy Spirit and are given gifts (empowerings) to continue the work of Jesus. I fail to see how you can make the distinction you are making.

It is an implied assumption throughout this thread. It becomes explicit from time to time like Yeshua1’s most recent post to me where he says that those who disagree with him should “shut up or show” – meaning that the person who has the gifts exercised them completely by their own will and not by the direct leading of God. The argument I’m responding to now is partially based on that presumption.

I hope so. Not everyone seems to recognize the implications of that belief as demonstrated by the arguments they are making…

Your insistence that “no one has the gift of healing today” which was quoted in your previous message. You have a systematized belief (cessationism) which claims that the Spirit will not give the grace gift of healing to a believer today. Do you deny that that’s your position?

To quote Nathan the prophet, “You are the man!”

I am laying the scriptural foundation for what is coming next…

Actually it is there in Acts where God-fearers such as Cornelius, the disciples of John, the Samaritans, and others go from an incomplete faith to a much more complete faith. For Cornelius and the disciples of John, it was accompanied by tongues. For the Samaritans, we are not told what evidence was given. The point is that the Spirit did not deal with people according to a formula.

I’m not even dealing with the Old Testament saints who entered into the Kingdom of God without even knowledge of Jesus and in the case of the earliest saints, without the Law.

Sure, but sometimes the gospel comes slowly and in an incomplete fashion.

Yes, I agree. I also have not made that claim. I wrote, “…will confirm their greater understanding of their place in the Kingdom of God…” Their greater understand of the Kingdom of God comes before their immersion in the Holy Spirit. You changed the wording to make my statement heretical. I hope that was an honest mistake.

It is the natural extension of what I have shown from scripture before. Those who initially hear a much more complete gospel message will certainly be baptized in the Spirit when they initially follow Jesus.

God deals with people in different ways, according to their temperaments. If you read the Gospels (even the dreaded Gospel of John), you will notice that Jesus didn’t treat anyone just alike. He used different metaphors and explanations according to their temperaments and life situations. The same thing holds in the Book of Acts with the missionary journeys and the various cultures and individuals the early church encountered. Furthermore, Paul wrote different things to different churches according to their culture and pressing needs.

This is not difficult to understand. Anyone with a casual familiarity with the scriptures should know this.

I would suggest that the church did manifest the gifts in some ways throughout the church age, although the “gift of tongues” as it is commonly practiced in Charismatic circles today did not seem to exist in Christendom. By the way, you need to fix your math. You claim 1,900 years when the Asuza Street revival occurred in 1905. You may be thinking of 1,800 years or less.

Much of what happened in the Azusa Street revival doesn’t seem to be biblical, but it does match up to manifestations that had occurred previously in other places and times in Christendom, such as the Cane Ridge Revival in 1801.

 

And if he had the gift of healing he (through the power of Christ) would be able to do that. The fact that no one is able to do that today is evidence that the gift of healing has ceased. The comparable event to that was in Acts 5:16 when thousands from cities all around Jesus came to Peter. And Peter healed every one of them. No one can do that today. What he displayed was "the gift of healing."

In the first century God gave "the gift of healing" to the apostles, and perhaps a very few others. It was demonstrated by Peter in Acts 5:16. That gift has ceased. We don't find any one today, and haven't since the end of the first century with that gift. It seems you have a misunderstanding of the "gifts of the Spirit."

I didn't miss the point at all.
We all agree with the statement above, but that is not what you said.
You deliberately said: "No. Peter didn't heal anyone."
The record specifically says that "The apostles did signs and wonders."
Does the Scriptures lie? Or do we just have to word things according to your lingo? You were not teaching any new truth!

He chose one. Not everyone asked to be healed. I stand by my statement. He never turned away anyone that asked to be healed.
Perhaps the reason that he chose this man is given here:

John 5:7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.

So, that does not contradict anything that I have said.

The gift of healing as well as the other sign gifts, as we understand them have ceased. It appears that you don't understand the miraculous nature of these gifts, nor their purpose.
God still heals; no one denies that. But no one today has the gift of healing, and can heal as Peter did in Acts 5:16.
No one today has the gift of languages, as they did in Biblical times. If they did they wouldn't have to study the language before going to the mission field.
No one today has the gift of miracles. (2Cor.12:12; Heb.2:3,4). One cannot perform signs and wonders at will, like Philip and Stephen could.
Such gifts of the Spirit have obviously ceased. If they haven't ceased, then is there any reason why you can't perform them?

I don't.

You were off topic. We are speaking of the gifts of the Spirit. Look at the title of the thread.

You are making a false distinction. Why would Jesus manifest "gifts of the Spirit," when he is deity? He is God. He does not need to manifest anything that is given to man for man and his ministry. What you say does not even make sense. The gifts of the Spirit were given to members of the local church for the ministry of the local church. The gospels were before the local church.

I would say that you presume to much, so much so that your statement here becomes a false accusation that needs not to be stated at all.
Your statement:

The Spirit is not a formula or process, so you can easily get into trouble when you try to systematize what the Spirit will and will not do - especially when you don't have strong scriptural support.

This is just totally absurd!

Can you give evidence of the gifts of Spirit being operative today.
Do you have the gift of miracles?
Can you exercise the gift of healing as Peter did in Acts 5:16.
No one has been able to do these things since the end of the first century. What makes you think they can do them now?

This is the statement that you referred to:
The Spirit is not a formula or process, so you can easily get into trouble when you try to systematize what the Spirit will and will not do - especially when you don't have strong scriptural support.

You own me an apology; you need to recant that statement. It is slanderous. If you don't do so, you should consider not posting again.
I don't believe that, and I don't know anyone here that does. That form of debase discussion does not belong on this forum.

The Bible verifies that they ceased by the first century. Biblical proof can be given for this. Their purposes were finished by that time.
History verifies that they had ceased. There is no record, especially in speaking of tongues. The only speaking of tongues in history were ecstatic tongues done by pagans and cults. This was not the gift of languages given in Biblical times.
Current usage of what is called tongues today verifies that they have ceased, as well as any evidence for the other gifts. There is none.
The gifts have ceased. The reasons are obvious. You don't have any evidence to the contrary. If you had you would be able to produce it; not just anecdotal, but solid actual evidence. But you can't.