The mark[s].. what is correct?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Spirit and Truth, Dec 13, 2003.

  1. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    In reading Revelation, one gets different concepts of how the 144,000 will be marked by God:

    Revelation 14:1

    LITV
    " .. with the name of His Father having been written on their foreheads."

    YLT
    " .. having the name of his Father written upon their foreheads;"

    KJV
    " .. having his Father's name written in their foreheads."

    NKJV
    " .. having His Father's name written on their foreheads."

    NASB
    " .. having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads."

    ESV
    " .. who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads."

    NIV
    " .. who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads."

    As you can see by the above passages, some say with the Fathers Name and others say with His Name AND the Fathers Name. Is this important? Then we have this:


    Revelation 13

    LITV
    17 even that not any could buy or sell, except the one having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of its name.

    YLT
    17 and that no one may be able to buy, or to sell, except he who is having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name

    KJV
    17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

    NKJV
    17and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

    NASB
    17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the
    beast or the number of his name.

    ESV
    17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.

    NIV
    17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.


    So is it the mark, the name, and the number, or is it just two of these and does it matter?
     
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    Rev 14:1 deals with the 144,000 saved. Some Greek has "autou kai to onoma" to the phrase "of his Father", others do not have the phrase. Thus the two different readings - his name and His Father's name - depending on which Greek texts one deems most faithful to the original. But either way, it is a name, probably YHWH the special name of God.

    This stands in juxtaposition with the previous verses (13:17-18) where the followers of the Beast/antichrist have a mark on their forehead. This mark (we are never told WHAT it is) might also be the name of the Beast or the number of the Beast.
     
  3. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    Leviticus 19

    28 And you shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead; and you shall not put on yourself any etched mark; I am Jehovah. [YHVH]

    Since God is telling us not to do it, would He turn around and give His children a visible mark, or does it mean something else? This brings me back to how important is it to understand the exactness of what has been stated in the Greek?

    Out of the thousands of texts available, what percentage would support one name versus two?
     
  4. Ransom

    Ransom
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    Roman soldiers would often tattoo the name of their commanding officer on themselves. The significance of this common custom would have been known to John and his audience: it was a badge of loyalty.

    Since God is telling us not to do it, would He turn around and give His children a visible mark, or does it mean something else?

    It's not forbidding anything or commanding anything. It is a metaphor. Rev. 13:16-14:1 contrasts those who are loyal to Satan and those who are loyal to Christ.

    Whether the "name" is of one person or two is doctrinally immaterial.
     
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    Percentage of texts? Hello. That would give us piles to weigh.

    Common error of the "only sect". Think various families of documents. In some families, because of persecution or replacement with Latin, very few exist. In others, since Greek was the common language for 1500 years, they will have hundreds of copies.

    Number of extant documents is NO WEIGHT AT ALL in the argument.

    The Western Orthodox texts have "his name and the fathers". Eastern Orthodox greek texts do not.

    Did one "add" the words or the other "subtract" the words. That is the question.
     
  6. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    It seems that we have many different words translated as "mark" and it appears that "written" is also different:

    Psalms 37
    37 Mark the perfect [man], and behold the upright: for the end of [that] man [is] peace.

    Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

    Greek for 4648
    skopeo {skop-eh'-o}

    1) to look at, observe, contemplate
    2) to mark
    3) to fix one's eyes upon, direct one's attention to, any one
    4) to look to, take heed to thyself


    Revelation 14
    1 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion! And with Him were a hundred and forty four thousands, with the name of His Father having been written on their foreheads.

    Greek for 1125
    grapho {graf'-o}

    1) to write, with reference to the form of the letters
    a) to delineate (or form) letters on a tablet, parchment, paper, or other material
    2) to write, with reference to the contents of the writing
    a) to express in written characters
    b) to commit to writing (things not to be forgotten), write down, record
    c) used of those things which stand written in the sacred books (of the OT)
    d) to write to one, i.e. by writing (in a written epistle) to give information, directions
    3) to fill with writing
    4) to draw up in writing, compose


    Revelation 20

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them. And judgment was given to them, and the souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus, and because of the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor its image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Greek for 5480
    charagma {khar'-ag-mah}

    1) a stamp, an imprinted mark
    a) of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist
    b) the mark branded upon horses
    2) thing carved, sculpture, graven work
    a) of idolatrous images
     
  7. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    Dr Bob stated:

    Percentage of texts? Hello. That would give us piles to weigh.
    Common error of the "only sect". Think various families of documents. In some families, because of persecution or replacement with Latin, very few exist. In others, since Greek was the common language for 1500 years, they will have hundreds of copies.
    Number of extant documents is NO WEIGHT AT ALL in the argument.
    The Western Orthodox texts have "his name and the fathers". Eastern Orthodox greek texts do not.
    Did one "add" the words or the other "subtract" the words. That is the question.

    S&T:

    Let me re-phrase the question. Since there are over 5,300 texts available [from fragments to complete mss], and they are in fact, segregated into families, which qroup has the largest number of witnesses for either single or double name?
     
  8. robycop3

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    I believe the mark of the beast will be human technology, such as a computer chip. The technology already exists to make it possible now, but I believe it will be developed a lot further, to make the chances of theft ot ID-stealing practically zero, before it's implemented.

    On the other hand, the mark of GOD will be totally supernatural, and whether it will be visible to all or not, I can only guess.
     
  9. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    Whenever there is a question concerning symbolism in the NT it's time to go digging in the OT (and perhaps in some apocryphal and pseudepigraphal books as well)!

    Christ the lamb in ch 14 is contrasted with the beast in ch 13. The mark or name on the forehead is a symbolism of God's protection and authentication of His believers. This imagery is also seen in the Apocalypse of Elijah and the Testament of Solomon (pseudepigraphal books) as well as 4 Ezra (written after Revelation). The mark and name are therefore the same thing.

    These books are not scripture mind you - but they do give us a little insight into the meaning of the symbols in Rev 13 and 14.

    The idea of a mark here would have made sense to 1st century Christians!
     

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