The Meaning of John 15: Love or Doom for Believers?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Marcia, Jun 30, 2006.

  1. Marcia

    Marcia
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    Here is John 15.2-10

    Someone on another thread stated that John 15 teaches that God doesn't love us anymore if we break his commandments. Does it teach this? If not, what is it saying? Is it addressed just to the disciples or to all believers? What does it mean?
     
  2. canadyjd

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    That is not what it is saying. Rom.8:38-39 confirms that the love of Christ toward His "elect" stands firm against all things.

    Jesus often used terms such as "bearing fruit" that referred to true believers. What He says in His parable of the sower is similar to what He says here. "Bearing fruit" is the validation of a profession of faith. Keeping the commandments (especially concerning love for the brethren) "proves" that a person is abiding in Christ and Holy Spirit is abiding in them.

    Even though works do not save you, those that do not produce "fruit" should have no assurance that they are saved, because they have no evidence of the indwelling Spirit.

    peace to you:praise:
     
  3. James_Newman

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    If it were addressed to only the disciples, it wouldn't make much difference. We are told to observe all the things that Christ told the disciples.

    Matthew 28:20
    20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

    We are grafted in as branches through faith. The teaching is to branches.
     
  4. J. Jump

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    Every believer is to produce good fruit. However and unfortunately not every believer will do so. Regardless of whether one produces good fruit or not it has nothing to do with their eternal salvation and if there is a lack of fruit it is not an indication that they are not saved.

    Fruit bearing and eternal salvation are two different contexts.

    Now with that being if a believer does not produce good fruit then there will be consequences to be faced at the judgment seat of Christ, but they are not eternal in nature as most of Christendom makes them out to be. They are millenial is scope.

    The Bible means what it says when it says that God will not be mocked. What a man sows he will reap. If he sows to the flesh he will reap corruption and if he sows to the Spirit he will reap life.
     
  5. James_Newman

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    Yes, abiding in His love is not the measuring stick of salvation. There is a sense in which God loves all men, He sent Jesus to die for us while we were yet sinners. But there is a love He shows His children who will obey Him and keep His commandments. This is a special love, like the love that He had for Jesus of whom He said 'this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.' If we want to experience this love, we must abide in the vine. If we don't, we will not experience that love at the judgment seat.
     
  6. canadyjd

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    Bearing fruit is most certainly given many times in scripture as the only indication of whether a profession of faith is genuine or not.

    We have a big problem in our churches today of wanting to declare people "saved" or "unsaved" based on past professions of faith, regardless of how they are living their lives.

    I will be the first to say that I cannot and should not declare anyone saved or unsaved. But scripture is clear, if a person is acting like an unbeliever, we should consider them to be unbelievers. Anything less is giving them a false assurance of salvation.

    peace to you:praise:
     
  7. Steven2006

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    In my opinion this is not talking about loss of salvation. So if not I think it might be one of two things.
    First option and the one I lean towards. Since it is speaking here of fruits and not salvation maybe it means if we don't live a life bearing fruits and using the gifts God gave us God will take away those gifts and to some extent we start to dry up as fruit bearing Christians. Say for example someone would be terrific working with young people, but instead he/she just ignored Gods calling to do this and didn't live a fruitful life for many years. Does this mean he loses his salvation? No, but he might have lost that ability to bear fruit in the area that God would have liked. God might withdraw that which we choose to ignore. These passages might just be an important warning to Christians to try hard to follow Gods will for our lives. I think it might tie in with 1Cor 3:15 "if a mans work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."
    The second option . In my opinion it might also be speaking of professing Christians that really aren't saved at all, "You will know them by their fruits"
     
  8. StraightAndNarrow

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    How do you explain verse 6?

    6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
     
  9. James_Newman

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    thats easy, a believer can be burned and still be saved. Steven2006 already quoted 1cor 3:15.
     
  10. DHK

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    John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    I once saw a grape vine that grew on a trellis right up the side of the house up to the roof. From the vine there were many branches, and from them twigs bearing plenty of grapes. Often within the branches and twigs you could find some brown or dead branches. They would have to be pruned off in order that the energy (sap) from the vine might be better concentrated in the rest of the plant, the parts that are best productive. The same held true for those parts of the plant that were not producing grapes. They were often pruned back, that they would produce more and better fruit the next year. Some parts were purged; others pruned.

    It is a known fact that if a branch is not connected to the vine there is no life. The only way that the branch can have life is if it is attached to the vine. All life comes from the branch.
    Christ is the vine. We as believers in Christ, are the branches. This is what Christ said to his disciples.

    John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
    --If a man does not abide in Christ, he does not believe in Christ. It does not say here that he abided and then did not abide. It simply says If he does not abide. If he does not believe. If he does not accept Christ as Saviour. He is like one of those dead branches that is gathered up and burned, and so it will be at the Great White Throne Judgement.

    It is the Father's will that every Christian bear fruit. If we abide in him, and he in us, we shall bear fruit.
    There is nothing in this passage to indicate the absence of God's love, or anything to even hint that God doesn't love anyone.
    DHK
     
  11. webdog

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    :thumbsup:
     
    #11 webdog, Jun 30, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2006
  12. James_Newman

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    thats a fanciful interpretation. Jesus said 'ye' are the branches. He was talking to the disciples.
     
  13. webdog

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    Was Judas a "branch"?
     
  14. James_Newman

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    I think so.
     
  15. StraightAndNarrow

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    Read the next two verses,.

    1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.
     
  16. gekko

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    was he only talking to the disciples?

    matthew 28:18-20. when Jesus said "Go ye therefore and teach all nations baptizing them..."

    was Jesus ONLY talking to the disiples because he said "ye" ?
     
  17. J. Jump

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    Can you give Scripture evidence as to that.

    That's because the Bible says salvation is based on the works of Christ and not how one lives their lives. By grace through faith you have been saved and that not of yourselves it was a gift of God and not of works so that no man can boast. No works really does mean no works on our part.

    So then why do you and others insist on having people prove to you they are saved? The Bible doesn't require proof for salvation, so why do some Christians?

    I'm not sure that I agree with that, unless you are talking about disfellowshipping one that is in unrepentant rebellion and it has been addressed with them according to Scripture.

    Anything less than treating people according to Scripture is giving them a false assurance of salvation. The Bible says believe and you will be (not maybe - but it's a sure thing) be saved. Why can't the Bible be the true, inerrant Words of the Living, All-Powerful, Almighty God without mankind trying to make Him say something He didn't?
     
  18. gekko

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    if a branch is thrown into the fire and burned. the branch is separated from the vine. if a branch is separated from the vine. it is not of the vine anymore. if it is not of the vine anymore - it can not be called 'part of the vine' because it is apart from the vine.
     
  19. gekko

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    Jump. i thought you believed that repentance had no part in salvation?
    ---

    good trees produce good fruit. plain and simple. its an inevitable RESULT of becoming that good tree - that good fruit would follow.

    may not need proof. but good fruit is the result of a good tree.
    ---

    do you honestly believe - J.Jump - that one can say the sinner's prayer - and then go and live any way they want - having all the cash and sex they want - and then still go to be with the Lord when they die? and that no part of them is going to the lake of fire? or that one part of them will go to the lake of fire and that one part will go to be with the Lord?
     
  20. J. Jump

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    Repentance does not play a part in eternal salvation.

    All all of this is speaking of false prophets/teachers, not believers in general.

    I do not believe in the sinner's prayer per se. I think that it is a dangerous way to evangelize folks.

    However, I do believe someone can seriously believe in the works of Jesus Christ in relation to eternal salvation and then once they count the cost of discipleship can say no thank you I do not want to be a disciple.

    And if they make that choice there will be consequences both in this age and in the age to come.
     

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