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Featured The Meaning of 'World' in John 3:16

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Martin Marprelate, Oct 30, 2016.

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  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Regeneration and salvation are the same thing. God can convict someone without having regenerated them because He is God and He is powerful enough to do that. In fact that is exactly they way He does it because He is the one who set it up that way.

    Further John 1:13 does not mean that the will of man and or his choice is not involved in the process of salvation at all it simply means that it is not the cause. God owns salvation and gives it freely to whom He wants to give it to. If He were to withhold it, those of whom he withheld it from would never be saved. Therefore, based on that fact alone, even though man's will and choice are involved in salvation the credit goes only to God. It is not necessary to discount the choice of man it is only necessary to recognize who gives it.
     
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  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
     
  3. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I'm familiar with that verse, but i don't see it having relationship to or including the phrase, "Heart of faith."
     
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Does that mean you believe salvation is the result of the good works of "Standing before men and confessing Jesus Is Lord?"

    Again you conflate regeneration with salvation.

    Then you believe wrongly.

    Yes, God uses means to draw the lost to Himself. What is your point?

    You said, "You will also claim men cannot hear the gospel . . . " I never said that. I never claimed that. I have not and will not claim that. I do not believe that. It is not a "disagreement." It is a lie straight out of the pit of hell. Don't do it again.

    Yes, you have confused regeneration with salvation. They are not the same thing. Regeneration results in our salvation.

    Wonderful. What's your point? You reject that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God?" (T) You reject that man is not saved because of any merit in himself, but only by the Grace of God?" (U) You believe that everybody, including the Devil and his demons will be saved? (L) You believe the regenerate can/will resist unto perdition? (I) You deny eternal security? (P)

    Yes, we have already dealt with that. God uses means to draw sinners unto Himself.
    I don't recall saying you did. Could you post when I made such a claim?
    When did I say that?
    You have already been warned about lying about what I believe. Don't do it again.
    That is a confusing statement. He saves the saved? What do you mean by that? Again, you are conflating regeneration with salvation.
     
  5. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Then what is the point of the passage? They had a cold, dead heart of unbelief. He gave them a new living heart. The context makes it clear the "living heart" is a believing heart.
     
  6. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


    Your argument is with the gospel. I'm only casting proof with scripture.
    Yet you have not shown scripture that clearly supports the view that Salvation and regeneration are the same.
    It's not just a drawing which it certainly does but is how we acquire faith.

    Then you believe all men can hear the gospel? I was under the impression that you are a 5 point Calvinist. If not I beg your pardon. Calvinism fails eventually with out faith in all 5 points.

    Please show scripture proving this to be so

    Not true this is a lie I have never said such a thing

    Not true. Man is not saved because of merits like unconditional election. Man is saved by the Grace of God

    That is not true and what's more you know it isn't true.

    again not true.

    Yet another not true
    Do you believe I shouldn't be allowed to disagree with you? Is this why you accuse me of such nonsense?

    I believe you are the one who needs the warning because you told me I deny eternal security. Which makes you the one telling lies.

    Not so He saves the lost, the saved do not need saving.
    MB
     
  7. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    MB[/QUOTE]


    No MB, I disagree with Calvinist position.

    But your absolute conditions are wrong too.

    First thing Paul did is persecute Christians. Jesus didn't start off with great job believing me now, He was struck blind and asked WHY ARE YOU PERCECUTING ME?

    Paul had no intent whatsoever to be Christian, no faith, no believe, no election, no regeneration, no conviction, Absolutely disqualified in every way to be Christian.

    Even the Devil will recongnize Jesus Christ:

    Luke 4

    34“Let us alone! What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are—the Holy One of God!”

    Luke 4
    41Demons also were coming out of many, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But rebuking them, He would not allow them to speak, because they knew Him to be the Christ.


    Notice Demons just love telling everyone who Jesus is, absolutely abhor telling us what Jesus instructed us to DO.



    A father who doesn't have fatherhood as his highest priority is not a father.

    At a snap of a finger, blink of an eye, or push of a button God can have everyone on this thread and in the world behave without sin and be perfect.

    God is not here to give a heart or brain transplant, God does not need to repent, mankind needs to repent.

    The accusation thrown by Calvinist is God has not acted for everyone, he holds back doesn't want to help some who drown in sin.

    The accusation thrown by non-Calvinist is God can't act at all, and won't help anyone who doesn't want to help themselves. That God won't help unless you got faith or believe.

    Both views are wrong , A good father is a father first. The rules were not made for God they were made to help sinners get on their feet. God is love and the goal of Christianity is Love. He will leave 99 sheep to look for the lost one. He is a perfect Father.

    Tomorrow the whole world can say you are worthless including yourself thinking it. The whole world can say you deserve hell. Everyone can throw rocks at you spit on you and hate you. And you can look at yourself and find nothing of worth. Yet God loves you more then anything, He didn't say it with just words, but THE WORD Jesus Christ, You are worth more to him then Jesus Christ.


    Luke 6
    35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.


    1 timothy 1
    5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
     
  8. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    This is a prophecy of Israel, in context, correct?
     
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    No, my argument is with you and that you conflate regeneration with salvation.

    They are not the same. Regeneration results in salvation. Regeneration results in salvation from the penalty of sin. Regeneration is saving us from the power of sin. And regeneration will save us from the presence of sin. So, it is clear that regeneration and salvation are not the same thing.

    Well, except a few who are totally deaf. But even they can "hear" it in the sense of knowing or understanding it.

    I am not a Calvinist at all. I am a Particular Baptist, believing in Particular Redemption as outlined in the Canons of the Synod of Dort.

    I didn't say you did. I asked you a question.

    So, does this mean you believe in conditional election? And how can something unconditional have conditions?

    It was a question.

    Again, a question.

    Yet another question.

    Have I ever said you can't disagree with me?

    I haven't accused you of anything. I asked you questions in an attempt to understand what you believe. So far I haven't received much in the way of answers.

    I told you no such thing. I asked you a question. A question intended to clarify what you believe.

    Then what did you mean by "He saves sinners the "who so evers"not saved people?"
     
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    It is directed to the people of God, in this case in the Old Testament, but also applies to the people of God in the New Testament. There is only one Gospel.
     
  11. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    In the Time of Ezekiel, was it directed towards Israel the Nation? Did it get fulfilled? How did you determine it applies to "the people of God in the New testament"? What hermeneuitcal approach led you to believe that?

    Ezekiel 36

    22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

    So, this happened to the people of God in the New Testament as well? Do you only apply a certain portion of this chapter to the NT believer? What methods did you follow to arrive at that conclusion?

    So believers in the NT weren't acting right and THEN God took out their Stoney heart? Help me make sense here, brother.
     
  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes. "Not acting right" is called "sin." And they were not, as yet, believers. Just as national Israel was in unbelief and given a heart of believing flesh transforming them into Spiritual Israel. And removing the heart of stone and giving a new heart of flesh is called "regeneration."
     
  13. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I don't see where you answered any of my questions, brother.
     
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Well, I am sorry you didn't understand. I really don't know how to make it any simpler. Sin = death. A new heart (regeneration) = life. That is as simple (and simplistic) as I can make it.
     
  15. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I asked you several other questions...

    In the Time of Ezekiel, was it directed towards Israel the Nation? Did it get fulfilled (if so when)? How did you determine it applies to "the people of God in the New testament"? What hermeneuitcal approach led you to believe that?

    Ezekiel 36

    22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

    So, this happened to the people of God in the New Testament as well? Do you only apply a certain portion of this chapter to the NT believer? What methods did you follow to arrive at that conclusion?

    Care to answer them?
     
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    To national Israel, yes. As I said earlier.

    Yes. At that time. Making them Spiritual Israel. As I said earlier.

    Because there is only one Gospel, as I stated earlier.

    The Literal/Historical/Grammatical hermeneutic.

    Yes. There is only one Gospel. As I said earlier.

    I apply what applies to the People of God to the People of God.

    The Literal/Historical/Grammatical hermeneutic. As I already said.

    I have answered them. At least twice and for one question, three times.
     
  17. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    When did this new heart come to Israel? After Babylonian Captivity? With Ezra and Nehemiah? With John the Baptist? Pentecost? I think we are being a little loose with the Text, don't you?
     
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    As God determined.

    I'm not but you may be.
     
  19. JonShaff

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    :)
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The promises were given to the nation for years.....only an elect remnant were saved.

    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

    25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

    26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

    28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

    29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

    30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

    31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

    32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

    33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed
     
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