The Means of Grace

How can people teach that we dont have our own ability to choose when the Bible clearly says:

Heb:3:15: While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

How can we think that if we are "elected" that nothing can undo that, when the Bible says:

2 Peter 1:
1: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

We were told that IF we do the things mentioned here, THEN our calling and election will be made sure.
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Obviously, if we are lifted up thinking we cannot fall, thats when we will:

1Cor:10:12: Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

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If we once have our names written in the Book of life, it can just as easily be taken out of it if we fail to be overcomers:

Rv:3:5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I just dont see where people get their strange teachings from. You have to compare one scripture with another to get the whole picture.

"The grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men ."

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom for all ." Titus 2:11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6.

The Spirit of God is freely bestowed to enable every man to lay hold upon the means of salvation. Thus Christ, "the true Light," "lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9.

Men fail of salvation through their own willful refusal of the gift of life.

 

Wrong interpretation!

John the Baptist is telling his listeners that he is experiencing the same kind of Joy that a friend of the Groom feels when the marriage takes place.

This was brought on, because John the Baptist who has seen Jesus, the groom, for the first time, and heard his voice, has at last seen the one for whom John has been the foreteller. He was ecstatic over meeting and baptising after hearing that Jesus was now baptising and that everyone was now going to him instead of coming to John.

 

Well Done Chrissy!

 

They Joy is! I've been there several times as the friend who stands up with the Groom, and I can testify that my Joy for the Bride and Groom is equal to the Joy they themselves experienced.

Have you become so hardened that you no longer feel such joy for another?

 

Listen, I am the friend, the best man for the groom. That is not a position given lightly by the groom. These Grooms and I have a history, we have lived experiences and grown together, I am not just someone pulled out of the audience to perform the duty of "best man". The grooms have been my best friends. I am obviously overjoyed with not only the honor of the position, but with my relationship with both the bride and groom, whom I love very much!

 

the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Rom. 11.29

for you to use the above quote as "proof" that somehow God will never reject us, no matter what we choose... is silly.

Of course God does not "repent" of having called us... the question is, will we accept the call?
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Secondly, you say:

Thus Christ, "the true Light," "lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9.

It is interesting to note you failed to mention vs. 10 "...and the world knew him not."
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the world knew Him not? No excuse for them there. God lighteth every man... if they choose not to know Him, thats their choice, isnt it? 1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Lots of Christians claim to "know God" but if they do not keep His commandments, they are not "saved" either... no matter whether they claim they are "the elect" or not. Just because someone has chosen to repulse God's overtures... such as in:

Jn:3:19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


God gives the light TO EVERY MAN... but some decide they love darkness rather than light, because the love to sin... NOT GOD'S FAULT... He gave the light to us all,,,

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you said:

"You are right that the Grace of God has appeared to all men, but this doesn't say that all men are saved does it, maybe some would want it to."

I did not SAY that all men are saved. Where did you get that idea from?

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You use the verses about Jesus holding us in His hand...

John 17:12: While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

But obviously, Judas was lost. Because he chose darkness.

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..all I have time for right now. But I leave you with the following thoughts:

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1 Timothy 2:3,4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely .

Matthew 28:19,20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. (KJV)

Mark 16:15 And He [Jesus] said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

James 5:19,20 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

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I dont mean to be rude but I regard this idea of predestination in the way that some teach it, as just about the most absurd thing I have ever heard, it just seems one would have to dismiss common sense to swallow it.


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also, I regard unbiblical "spin" on the idea of predestination, as akin to racism in a way... Just the same way that we are to judge men according to WHAT THEY DO instead of WHAT THEIR COLOR IS... so too does God judge men on WHAT THEY DO not upon some predetermined "election" ... that is a horrid thought that supposedly God consigns some from birth automatically to the "flames of hell". What sort of God do you serve? I believe it to be the most disgusting idea.
In actuality, the idea grew out from a hatred of keeping the law of God. This "predestination" idea allows a person to falsely rest secure and to shove the burden of his own salvation upon God, instead of taking responsiblity for his or her own actions...

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works" (Matt. 16:27).

"(God) will render to every man according to his deeds" (Rom. 2:6-11).

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (2 Cor. 10:5).

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting" (Gal. 6:7, 8).

you can read a little of the history of where this doctrine truly came from... here:

http://www.egwestate.andrews.edu/gc/gc14.html

[ February 24, 2003, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Chrissy ]

 

Is it out of line to say that Chrissy has strong opinions and scripture to support it?

 

Again, in scripture, salvation is not that you know God. It is that God knows you.

 

Since not a shred of her scriture interpretation is correct in this regard, yes it is out of line.

Having Scriture is nto the issue. Having it interpreted correctly is the issue. That is where Yelsew and all Arminians fail. Arminianism is primarily a philosopy, an idea, not something built on exegesis of relevant texts.

Take for example this Romans 11:29.

This verse is part of a broader argument of Ro. 9-11. It supports the the initial point of Paul in this section, that the "word of God has not failed" (see 9:6a). 11:29 is a positive statement that supports that negative assertion. The word of God has not failed becuase God is faithful in not revoking his call (that would be the practical outworking of "repenting" of election).

It is such shoddy efforts at interpreting that makes arminianism and all those other related errors untenable.

 

Indeed. Election does not mean men are witout responsibility. Paul in Roamns often switches between the indicative (you are) andthe imperative (you must). What needs to eb borne in mind is that Paul can only speak in the imperative to those to whom he speaks in the idicative.

IOW Paul demands that people live a life consistent with their calling because they CAN live that life having been given the Spirit. They can because they have been so enabled. Being jsutified means being filled with the love of God (God's love for us) and that WILL get a reaction, and there is no chance that it is anything other than one which produces perseverance (see Romans 5:1-11).

 

Bible Belted,
Interpret this for all of us so that we can see where you are coming from.

 

Yelsew,

That translation of yours is quite quirky! I almost didn't recognise Romans 11:28-32. It isn't as literal as some translations. if that is what you use, and you take it literally that could explain where you get some of your quirky ideas.

Ok, here goes.

Paul has been from v.11 arguing that Israel's stumbling is not an insurmountable problem. Paul has been arguing that Israel's problems are but a necessary part of the salvation-historical process whereby the Gentiles come into the Kingdom of God. Israel started outas the focus (see the OT). In the NT period however Israel has given way to the Church. This was necessary forthe salvation of the Gentiles. However the Jews are not without hope. They have not beel replaced, only temporarily displaced. (Se 11:11-24)

That forms the backdrop for 11:25-32. These verses are the climax of Paul's argument. He refers to the salvatioon historical process as a "mystery", and now turns to speak of Israel's restoration. The key verse if v. 26 ("and in this way all Israel shall be saved"). Verse 25 explains the "this way" that all Israel is saved. It will be a final act of God that comes after the hardening of Israel is removed and the requisite number of Gentiles become members of the Kingdom of God.

The rest of the passage confirms this. Paul affirms that this is scritural (meaning it has always been the plan). For that see v. 26,27. In v. 28-29 Paul affirms that this means of restoring "all Israel" is based on God's faithfullness in keeping his promises in election. V. 30-32 are Paul's way of re-affirming that this manifests God's impartiality to all people, echoing earlier chapters.

Now this is not very detailed, but I think it gives you a good idea as to where I see things going.

 

And which translation would you prefer I use, I have 18 translations at my disposal?

 

Just something a bit more literal. Try the NASB.