The "Message" Bible ???

I found this site in my research of the message. If even half of the stuff that they put forth is accurate, it should make a lot of people reconsider this translation:

http://watch.pair.com/message.html

http://watch.pair.com/message2.html

http://watch.pair.com/message3.html

 

Originally posted by Spirit and Truth:

And of course, what did Jesus do when He encountered the enemy [not his minions] head on. He spoke the Word as it is written.


S&T stated earlier:
Not embarrasing me at all. I was discussing Jesus going head to head with the adversary in that quote.[he is, after all, the leader of the minions

BB:

Oh.

I had assumed the best and thought you had merely made a mistake. Now I see that you intentionally changed the subject so as to avoid the fact that you were wrong in your assertion that someone who casts our demons must quote scripture.

S&T:

The point that I was trying to make, was that if you are going to go into combat, you had better know the enemy and his ways. How is this accomplished? By studying and knowing the Word AS it is written. The message falls miserably short in that area, which by the way was the point of this discussion although many want to get away from dealing with this.


BB:
Unfortunately that has been your pattern in this discussion. You keep shifting subjects when confronted with biblical evidence that contradicts your views. It is a virtue to admit when you are wrong, but it is sin to ignore biblical truth.

S&T:

More accusations...sigh. Let's get back to the point:

A: Does the message use a term to supposedly describe Heaven and earth that is used by satanists and wiccans etc to conjur up demonic forces and actually in some beliefs means Heaven and hell?

YES or NO

B: Would this not adulterating the words of Jesus?

Yes or NO


S&T stated earlier:

Debate 101:

Ad hominem attacks are not a substitute for a well constructed rebuttal.

BB:
It is not an ad hominem, but rather a summation of the basic difference between us: I (and most other people here) interpret scripture in context, while you seem to be fixated upon words without reference to context.


Your inability to understand and apply the basic language skill of context makes me very skeptical of your claimed ability to study the original languages - especially since Hebrew is so incredibly context-dependant.

S&T:

Please do not make me go back and quote all of the times that you have attacked my education, knowledge of language, etc to try and destroy my credibility while not addressing the subject. To be clear once again, it is not words, but EXACT phrases that have been used by occultists for hundreds if not thousands of years to conjur demonic forces.

BB:

These false allegations against those who oppose your mistaken assumptions are repugnant to Christ and only undermine the Kingdom of God.


S&T:

More of trying to undermine my credibility while avoiding the point of the topic. I will let Christ judge who is repugnant to Him. I did not personally attack the translator of the message paraphrase. I pointed out what I believe to be dangerous phrases used in the writing. It is my feeling that using a text that has been adulterated with occultic terms undermines the TRUE Kingdom.

 

I have decided that I will no longer answer attacks or the projecting of behavior of others on me by anyone. The point of this topic is are there occultic phrases in this translation and how were they derived from the original language texts.

S&T stated earlier:

AS it is written.

BB:

It was written primarily in Hebrew and Koine Greek. Are you advocating that we only use the scripture in the original languages? I doubt it. But if you allow the use of translations, then you can't say that you are using the scripture as it was written.

S&T:

For the record, let us also note that part of Daniel, Ezra, a passage in Jeremiah, and a partial phrase in Genesis is written in Aramaic. Also many of the words in the Koine Greek text are of Aramaic origin:

Abba, Akeldama, mammonas, Dalmanoutha, rhabboni, satanas, eloi, lama, sabachthani, ephphatha, gabbatha, Gethsemane, Golgotha, Kephas, korban, talitha, koumi, and many more. It should also be noted that there are also words of Hebrew origin in the Greek.

Let's also remember that the Name of Jesus [an english transliteration from the Greek Iesous] was originally written in the OT in Hebrew as Yehoshua. The point that I am making, is that in order to translate biblical texts properly, one would have to be proficient in Hebrew, Aramaic,Koine Greek, and possibly Syriac [an Aramaic dialect]. With that aside, can you or your friend tell me how "as above, so below" was "translated" from the koine Greek. I am very interested to hear this explanation.

S&T stated earlier:

The message falls miserably short in that area?

BB stated:

Not really. It reads well and brings out some nuances of the Greek that don't easily come out in more traditional translations. As I've pointed out more than a few times, I have a friend who is very comfortable with classical Greek (he reads it with only occasional use of a lexicon) and has a good grasp of the nuances of the Greek language in that era. He has been very impressed with "The Message".

S&T:

I am anxiously awaiting your/ his translation presentation on this. At that time I will decide whether it is necessary for me to present one as well.

 

I found these other sites that are questioning the message translation. Let me state that posting these or any links in no way constitutes my endorsement of these ministries. It is for informational purposes only:

http://www.crossroad.to/Bible_studies/Message.html

http://www.lighthousetrails.com/themessage.htm

 

BB:

Nope. If you have skills in Greek, you can properly translate Greek into English. If you skills in Hebrew, you can properly translate Hebrew into English. And so on and so on? Certainly knowledge of other languages is very helpful, but not necessary.

S&T:
Mr Peterson translated a complete bible did he not? Therefore he should be credible in all languages to do this, correct?

BB:

It's a question based on mistaken assumptions. No one has alleged that it is a traditional translation, so your request is irrelevant.

S&T:
You are adamantly saying that these phrases should be coming out ot the mouth of Jesus but you refuse to or can not demonstrate from textual evidence why. That would make this choice of phrases a "guess", and I fail to see the scholarship in that. Sorry.

 

I was informed in an earlier post that the message reads well and brings out some nuances of the Greek that don't easily come out in more traditional translations. Because of this statement, I set out to find what some of these nuances might be:


Ephesians 6: 11- 18

Message [paraphrase]

So take everything the Master has set out for you, well-made weapons of the best materials. And put them to use so that you will be able to stand up to everything the Devil throws your way. This is no afternoon athletic contest that we'll walk away from and forget about in a couple of hours. This is for keeps, a life-or-death fight to the finish against the Devil and all his angels.

Be prepared. You're up against far more than you can handle on your own. Take all of the help you can get, every weapon God has issued, so when it's all over but the shouting you'll still be on your feet. Truth, righteousness, peace, faith, salvation are more than words.Learn how to apply them. You'll need them throughout your life. God's word is an indispensable weapon. In the same way prayer is essential in this ongoing warfare. Pray long and hard. Pray for your brothers and sisters. Keep your eyes open. Keep each other's spirits up so that no one falls behind or drops out.


Question:

Please list all of the weapons that God gave us to do battle with and any definitions of their purpose from the above text.


Next is the NIV which is represented as a dynamic equivalent translation:


NIV

11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.


Question:

Please list all of the weapons that God gave us to do battle with and any definitions of their purpose from the above text.


Next is the literal translation which is promoted as a word for word:


Ephesians 6 LITV [Literal]

11 Put on all the armor of God, for you to be able to stand against the wiles of the Devil,
12 because wrestling against flesh and blood is not to us, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world's rulers, of the darkness of this age, against the spiritual powers of evil in the heavenlies.
13 Because of this, take up all of the armor of God that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and having worked out all things, to stand.
14 Then stand firm, "having girded your loins about with truth" and having put "on the breastplate of righteousness," Isa. 11:5; 59:17
15 and having shod the feet with the preparation of the "gospel of peace." Isa. 52:7
16 Above all, taking up the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the darts of the evil one being kindled.
17 Also, take "the helmet of salvation," and the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God; Isa. 59:17 LXX-Isa. 11:4; MT-Isa. 49:2; LXX and MT-Hos. 6:5
18 through all prayer and petition, praying at all times in the Spirit, and watching to this same thing with all perseverance and petition concerning all the saints.


Question:

Please list all of the weapons that God gave us to do battle with and any definitions of their purpose from the above text.


NASB

Eph 6:11
Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.

Eph 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Eph 6:13
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

Eph 6:14
Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,

Eph 6:15
and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;

Eph 6:16
in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

Eph 6:17
And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

Eph 6:18
With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,


S&T:

Feel free to try this quick and easy comparison with your favorite translation.

 

Scott stated:

I rather like the Message translation here. For ehat it is worth, the idea behind the sword, breastplate, armour, and so on makes more sense to 21st century English speaking people when translated it that way.

S&T:

With all of the recent releases [in the last ten years] of movies that have swords, helmets, shields, etc, I would personally find it hard to believe that there would be anyone [even kids] that would not know what they are. This passage is incomplete in as much as it does not clearly name the weapons and any applications. God meant what He said.

 

Scott stated:

For ehat it is worth, the idea behind the sword, breastplate, armour, and so on makes more sense to 21st century English speaking people when translated it that way.

TC added:

The Message may not be as detailed in naming the weapons, but he does a good job in pointing out what their purpose is.

S&T:

Let's break this down a little further.

Ephesians 6 LITV [Literal]

We are told to put on ALL of the armor:

11 Put on all the armor of God, for you to be able to stand against the wiles of the Devil,

13 Because of this, take up all of the armor of God that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and having worked out all things, to stand.


We are told of the "Belt" of truth and the "Breastplate" of righteousness:

14 Then stand firm, "having girded your loins about with truth" and having put "on the breastplate of righteousness,"


To wear the "shoes" of the gospel of peace:

15 and having shod the feet with the preparation of the "gospel of peace."


Most important is the "shield" of faith and we are told why:

16 Above all, taking up the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the darts of the evil one being kindled.

To put on the "helmet":

17 Also, take "the helmet of salvation,"

And to use the "sword" which is the Word:

and the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God;


Now, let's look at the message:

So take everything the Master has set out for you, well-made weapons of the best materials. And put them to use so that you will be able to stand up to everything the Devil throws your way. This is no afternoon athletic contest that we'll walk away from and forget about in a couple of hours. This is for keeps, a life-or-death fight to the finish against the Devil and all his angels.

Be prepared. You're up against far more than you can handle on your own. Take all of the help you can get, every weapon God has issued, so when it's all over but the shouting you'll still be on your feet. Truth, righteousness, peace, faith, salvation are more than words.Learn how to apply them. You'll need them throughout your life. God's word is an indispensable weapon.


Questions:

So what are the weapons and is it signifigant? Can it be the helmet of truth instead, and why is helmet important being used along with salvation? Which of the six that he named is important above all and why? Can we use the peace to stop the fiery darts? If our soldiers were briefed like this before battle they would be set up for a massacre. Is it any less important when battling in the spiritual realm? [this is a key scripture]

I am considering reducing this translation from it's previously stated "butterknife" status, to that of the plastic knife that you recieve in pre-packaged box lunch. [the one that breaks when used]

 

Let's look at the predicted coming of the "antichrist" and the relevence of accurate descriptive information:


Message

You'll also remember that I told you the Anarchist is being held back until just the right time. That doesn't mean that the spirit of anarchy is not now at work. It is, secretly and underground. But the time will come when the Anarchist will no longer be held back, but will be let loose. But don't worry. The Master Jesus will be right on his heels and blow him away. The Master appears and--puff!--the Anarchist is out of there. The Anarchist's coming is all Satan's work. All his power and signs and miracles are fake,

S&T:

Anarchist versus anti-christ - Webster's Third International Dictionary, defines anarchism briefly but accurately as, "a political theory opposed to all forms of government and governmental restraint and advocating voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups in order to
satisfy their needs."

New Webster Handy College Dictionary, define anarchism as, "the political doctrine that all governments should be abolished."

So then, can we assume that all government will be abolished by the coming of the anarchist? Is this how we will know him?

2 Thessalonians 2 LITV

6 And now you know the thing holding back, for him to be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.
8 And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence. Isa. 11:4
9 His coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and miraculous signs and lying wonders,

S&T:
So the above text defines him using terms as "the lawless one", and lawlessness, and the KJV uses iniquity. Why is this important?

And then there is this to ponder:


10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.
11 And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,


S&T:

In order to know the truth, we need a text that is descriptively accurate in nature to study to show ourselves approved.

 

The Message versus traditional translations:


Let's use an analogy. You know that you eventually are going to be in an extremely tough competition, and realize the importance of training using proven methods. One day you meet a guy who convinces you that he has a better more modern way to train. He invites you to his facility, and assures you that you will use only the best equipment, eat the best food, and use the best training techniques coupled with the most accurate up to date information.

When you get to his place, he hands you weights that are much lighter than you are used to working with. He explains that it is easier for you to use this method versus the traditional method that so many have had success with, and not to worry, while reminding you of the fact that he has credentials. That evening you sit down for dinner expecting milk, meat and other nutritious foods, and instead, he places a plate of cotton candy in front of you and explains that this is sweeter, that you won't need a sharp knife to cut it, and that it is much more "exciting" to eat. After doing this for a while, you stop questioning him and even begin to like it and even tell your friends about it. It is not very long, and then one day suddenly, competition day arrives. Midway through the competition it becomes painfully evident that you do not have the strength and ability to cross the finish line because of the errant training techniques and the poor nutrition.

 

Understanding intended meaning in translations:

Main Entry: anarchist
Pronunciation: 'a-n&r-kist
Function: noun
Date: 1678
1 : one who rebels against any authority, established order, or ruling power
2 : one who believes in, advocates, or promotes anarchism or anarchy; especially : one who uses violent means to overthrow the established order

Main Entry: Antichrist
Pronunciation: 'an-ti-"krIst
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English anticrist, from Old English & Late Latin; Old English antecrist, from Late Latin Antichristus, from Greek Antichristos, from anti- + Christos Christ
Date: before 12th century
1 : one who denies or opposes Christ; specifically : a great antagonist expected to fill the world with wickedness but to be conquered forever by Christ at his second coming
2 : a false Christ


anarchism   noun
the political belief that there should be little or no formal or official organization to society but that people should work freely together

anarchist   noun [C]
1 a person who believes in anarchism:
He was a poet, an anarchist and a vegan.
an anarchist group/slogan/bookshop

2 DISAPPROVING someone who wishes to destroy the existing government and laws:
anarchist tendencies/demonstrations

Antichrist   noun [C]
originally the main enemy of Jesus Christ who was expected to rule the world until Jesus Christ's Second Coming, now any enemy of Jesus Christ or the Christian religion

S&T:

In order to defend, you must first know your adversary. To accept a guessed substitute for the intended meaning of the "author" is a recipe for disaster.