The Message

— John Gill Commentary </font>[/QUOTE]quote from the above quote:
"and such a man will strive and contend for it, stand fast in it, and hold it fast, and not let it go, which is meant by "selling" it; truth is not to be sold upon any account, or for any thing whatever; it is not to be slighted and neglected; it should not be parted with neither for the riches, and honours, and pleasures of this life, nor for the sake of a good name among men, nor for the sake of peace,"

thereby stating exactly my point

 

Great article. If it is even fifty percent accurate, why would anyone use that "book" as a Bible.

 

Not all things are as they appear. Just because a book has a leather cover doesn't mean that it is the Bible. By the same token, just because a book is in a paperback or hardback cover doesn't mean it isn't the Bible.

Yeah, I think there are still a few of 'em around. But it seems that many who do not know Christ as Savior think that they can buy a form of godliness, and that then everything will be alright.

 

but also and

The first "christian" bookstores I walked into as a new believer had books that did not seem Christian to me at all, and I discovered later, were not Christian. I prefer a bookstore like Borders or Barnes & Noble because it's not as depressing to go there. At least you know what to expect.

I've posted on this topic before;t I just don't understand how anyone can like The Message when Peterson actually changes the meaning of some verses or adds his words to them. Why not just buy a commentary? The Message is like taking the Bible and inserting commentary into it as though it's the actual Bible.

 

Marcia,

I've heard that Petersen's rendering of Matthew 6:10, "as above, so below", is a well known New Age phrase. Is that a fact, and if so, how could that 'translation' be explained as an accident, seeing how Petersen is (supposedly) an acclaimed scholar?

"Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." Matthew 6:10 KJV

"Set the world right; Do what's best - as above, so below." Matthew 6:10 - The Message (emphasis mine)

 

Actually, IveyLeaguer, I read a comment on this by someone who knew Greek who said that was the best translation of this phrase. Not knowing Greek, I can't really speak to that.

"As above, so below" goes way back before the New Age and to medieval occult worldviews that had to do with alchemy and astrology (I believe). However, context is everything and I think it is possible to use this phrase in a way that is not connected with the occult if it's in the right context. On its face, these words merely state that something should be here on earth the way it is above, so that as God's will is done above, so may it be done on earth (below). I don't think Petersen is using it in the occult sense but is merely rendering the phrase in a way he thinks is best. I am not sure he even knows its connection to medieval occult views. So this one thing about The Message I don't pick on or criticize, oddly enough.

I don't like the rest of the way he puts it, though -- "Set the world right: do what's best" just doesn't say much to me - it's very general and simplistic. It totally leaves out God's will and implies God could do less than what is best.

 

Well, I would agree the rest of the verse doesn't 'say much', but that sort of 'shallowness' occurs throughout, IMO.

My interest in New-Age usage of the term is not its origin but whether or not it is a well known New-Age phrase, commonly known by a nucleus of New Agers today.

As far as the Greek, "as above, so below", being the best translation doesn't ring true to me. But that's off the top of the head - a quick search of 5 or 6 dictionaries gives no indication of it, either.

I believe you saw that, of course, but that is something I need to see hard evidence of as it doesn't ring true. If you recall where you saw it, please let me know. I'll try to dig into it when I have time.

Thanks.

 

I do not remember that being said, but if the person who stated that are still reading this, I want to get a discussion of the Greek going here.

 

I agree!

Well, yes, it's well-known and I even quoted it when teaching astrology, but as far as I recall, most people did not make a big deal out of the phrase though they assumed it's metaphysical truth. I did see it in a lot of New Age books, especially astrology books. I have to also say the New Age is not monolithic but is rather an umbrella term for a loose (very loose) confederation of assorted beliefs, mostly syncretic and woven from bits of Eastern, Gnostic, and occult beliefs, some of which are chunks broken off of New Thought, Theosophy, human potential teachings, and Jungian psychology and philosophy. So generally speaking, though "as above, so below" is well-known, other terms such as Christ Consciousness, the Universe, Self-realization, Spirit, True and False Self, Higher Self, etc. tend to be more widely used.

I think it was one of those things that I saw while reading through something quickly but if I see it again, I'll let you know!

 

On an earlier Message thread, GreekGeek posted a nicely done table with his comments about various passages that appear in that book. I was wondering if he would post them again on this thread?

 

The Greek on Matt 6.10 does not allow for the "as above so below" translation. Such a loose translation only comes from not placing appropriate weight on what the Greek says. The Greek literally translated into English states "in heaven also in earth." The Greek is very literal on 'heaven' and 'earth.' If the author had intended the understanding 'above' and 'below' he would have used words such as 'epi' or 'katw.' Now in Matt 6.10 the word 'epi' is used but it is used in relation to the genitive 'earth' and the best Greek rendering is 'in' or 'on.' The Greek specifically says 'heaven' and 'earth.'

The tables Boanerges refered to are linked below. Please, please read the notes associated with each file. One table has each entry labeled as to seriousness (from very serious - to those that just annoyed me). The other file on Hebrews 11 is not sorted as to seriousness. Some on that file are very serious - others just annoyed me. The minor issues that annoyed me I would not stake my arguments on. So please, if you interact with the problems I found - please interact on the serious ones and don't harrass me for the minor issues. I have not had time to edit the files and take off the "minor-offenses."

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/k5ubs/message.html

 

The message's passages in Rom. concerning homosexuality is pathetic. They were "confused"?
That is like saying they didn't know what they were doing it wasn't there fault. That passage in no way shape or form implies the idea of "confused". To me to translate it that way is to offer a "pass" for the homosexual's sin of perversion.

 

Thanks Double G for the excellent job that you did on your tables. That book is such a mess in my opinion. I am convinced that Christians these days will purchase and endorse anything.

 

Many misquote the model prayer as saying,

Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

The actual phrase says, 'in earth'.

Christ in you', 'treasure in earthen vessels', 'Let this mind be in you'...

See the picture? It is not the literal earth we are to ask God's will in, but the individuals themselves.

We are to be conformed to the image of Christ. Our will should not even be in the picture.

Praise His Holy Name!

 

Hmmm...

That's a bit different view than I had heard before. And it does make sense that way!

 

Greek geek, thanks for your post. I asked about the "as above, so below" paraphrase in The Message on an apologetics list and two members who know Greek agreed with you. Here is what one said:

SFIC, I think the above comments also show that "in earth" does not mean in humans but literally the earth. As God's will reigns in heaven, so let it be on earth. I don't there is anything there to read into it other than what it says -- it's not talking about earthen vessels but earth.

 

doesn't say 'on earth, but 'in earth'

On earth would imply humans could continue living in sin, doing whatever they wanted, not having God's will, but their own.

I believe 'in earth' means exactly that. The Word of God tells us we are earthen vessels. Jeremiah 18 says we are clay in the hands of the Potter.

 

Sorry, SFIC, with all due respect to your view, I think this literally means the earth. It could imply humans but it's more than just humans -- it's that God's will be done in the matters of earth -- men, animals, nature, etc. May God's will reign in the earthen realm as it does in the heavenly one. I think Jesus would have said "in us" if he meant men. Men are not referred to as "earth." Earthen vessels are not the same as the earth itself.

 

When Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane, He did not cry for the cup to be passed from the world, but from Him 'nevertheless, not my will, but thine' was His cry.

He was crying for God's Will to be done in Him, getting the flesh out of the way. We must die to flesh daily. Just as Christ had to submit to God's Will for Him, so must we; for we were made from the dust of the earth. We are earth.

Thy will be done in earth, in us.