The Millions Who Never Had a Choice

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Nov 9, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. thatbrian

    thatbrian
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    58
    If God simply provided a way of salvation in Christ's death, if salvation is there for the taking, but you must choose it to gain its benefits, then what about the millions and millions of people who have lived and died throughout history who never heard the gospel or even the name of Jesus?

    Do Arminians (or, non-Calvinists) say that God wants to save all people, but He can't because He is limited by the human spreading of the gospel? Also, what if the humans who have presented the gospel did a very poor job in proclaiming it? Did the hearers have a reasonable shot at the "free gift" of salvation if they got a lousy gospel presentation?

    What's the Arminian defense for their belief in free choice when there has been no choice for multiple millions?
     
    #1 thatbrian, Nov 9, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. matt wade

    matt wade
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    76

    There may be 1 or 2 actual Arminians on this board, so I will leave that for them to answer.

    I do think it is ironic however that someone who (I assume) is a Calvinist, acts as if they are concerned with people's choice.
     
  3. thatbrian

    thatbrian
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    58
    If the majority of people on BB are not Calvinists and 1-2 are Arminians, what are the rest? Where do you stand?

    I think that you misread my post. I'm not not concerned about anyone's choice. I asked how Arminians defend their position in light of the facts contained in my post.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. matt wade

    matt wade
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    76
    Maybe you should understand the beliefs of Arminians before attaching that label to people?
     
  5. thatbrian

    thatbrian
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    58
    Matt, you have not addressed the question, but only given 2 ad hominem attacks in your two replies. That's not helpful to meaningful discussion. One more and I'll simply ignore you.

    I know very well what Arminian beliefs are, and I also know that most people haven't thought though these important things, and, I also know that there are many here who hate labels, but they are Arminian in their thought.

    Lastly, I am asking about Arminian beliefs. That is the point of my post. I see a glaring inconsistency that I would like Arminians, or the rest here who are but refuse to say so, what their answer is to my question.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,086
    Likes Received:
    139

    Good post brother! I would like to see some replies from not only anyone who would consider themselves Arminians, but anyone who reject any of the five points of the doctrines of grace or who believe in gospel regeneration! It appears the first poster who replied to you would fit into one of these categories, but he seems to prefer dodging your questions.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. matt wade

    matt wade
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    6,156
    Likes Received:
    76
    How can I dodge a question when it is asked of Arminians, of which I am not?

    Arminians believe you can lose your salvation. I don't believe that and the VAST majority of posters here don't believe that. You may find a couple of people here that truly fit the Arminian label.
     
  8. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    16,653
    Likes Received:
    158
    If God is perfectly just, and I believe he is, then He has a way through Christ that these people will have a choice as fair and just as ours was who did hear of Jesus during our life. I do not know how God will do this.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. thatbrian

    thatbrian
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    58
    Thanks for you response, Crabtownboy.

    Do you have a more biblically-based answer, though?

    Also, in response Why should we send missionaries into grave danger if your answer is correct? Further still, why did Jesus have to suffer and die if there where some alternate way of salvation?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Reformed

    Reformed
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    57
    Jacob Arminius did not believe a person could lose their salvation. His followers did not believe it either. It was later Wesleyan influence, mingled with free will aspects of historic Arminianism, that introduced the Arminian view of being able to lose one's salvation.

    When it comes to discussing predestination and election, Arminianism has come to represent the Synergist view, just as Calvinism has come to represent the Monergist view. Those who debate honestly know that a Synergist does not accept all of what Arminius taught, any more than a Monergist accepts all of what Calvin taught. Those who eschew labels seem hung up on this issue when all the terms do is represent is a form of theological shorthand. Or do you really want a person who believes in the free will view to always be referred to as, "a person who believes that man is born tabula rasa, and has in the inherent ability, independent from any work of God, to exercise or not exercise faith"?
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,233
    Likes Received:
    1,320
    Actually, they don't. Remonstrance, Article V — That those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory, it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled, nor plucked out of Christ's hands, according to the word of Christ, John x. 28: "Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scriptures before they can teach it with the full persuasion of their minds.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2008
    Messages:
    16,653
    Likes Received:
    158
    1. I am not sure my reply can be proved nor shown false with scripture. Sure, we can quote selected verses for either side. However, when I look at how Christ lived and the way he interacted with people I am lead to believe as I stated. Christ says he has those we know not of. First Timothy 2:3-4 could be used as a proof text. However I do not believe a whole doctrine can be built on one verse.
    2. We should send missionaries for several reasons.
      1. a. We are commanded to do with with scripture. "Go ye into all the world ................
      2. Paul went on missionary journeys as did others.
      3. I believe people in accepting Christ will have a better life; perhaps not materially, but spiritually and emotionally.
      4. I may be wrong in my thought as stated in my first reply.
     
  13. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,263
    Likes Received:
    619
    They are likely going to Hell.

    No.

    Isa. 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
    It shall not return to Me void,
    But it shall accomplish what I please,
    And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.




    http://www.amazon.com/dp/0849947200/?tag=baptis04-20
     
    #13 InTheLight, Nov 9, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015
  14. thatbrian

    thatbrian
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    58
    God's Word has not been present throughout many millions of people's lives. They lived and died without ever hearing God's Word.

    While I will allow for these dreams and visions being from God, we are talking about a handful of people, as compared with the world's population (living and dead) who have had these dreams.

    Also, would you honestly allow a Calvinist to defend his doctrine by saying that he had dreams and visions?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. thatbrian

    thatbrian
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    58
    Is there any scripture that says there is a chance for a man to saved after death?

    I think that you misunderstood my question. I mean, if God will somehow give everyone a fair shot at being saved, then why should we go through the hassle and danger? Why die for spreading the gospel if there is some other way for people to be saved?

    Since scripture is my only source of truth, I really want to discuss it, rather than speculation about what might be. There has to be a scriptural basis for your answer.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  16. robustheologian

    robustheologian
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    119
    I think it is the funniest thing to hear Arminians claim to not be Arminians. So Calvinists are proud to be Calvinists while Arminians are ashamed of it. That tells a lot about the Arminian position. However, in their defense, if I were an Arminian I'd be ashamed of it too.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  17. robustheologian

    robustheologian
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    119
    Arminians are kind of split on that. A group of them believe that those who haven't heard the gospel are just lost. The very liberal Arminians believe that they are exempt from judgment...some even going to the point of believing in annihilationism (such as Seventh-day Adventists).

    Their position is better stated that God wants to save all people, but He can't because He is limited by human will. Either way, Arminianism makes God out to be some sort of impotent God.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. thatbrian

    thatbrian
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    58
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. thatbrian

    thatbrian
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    58
    Let me try to put a finer point on this.

    Many people on BB, in fact, many in the church today, think that man's "free will" is the limiting factor, while we Calvinists say that God's will/ choice is the limiting factor ("I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy").

    How does a non-Calvist reconcile that fact that over a billion people have had no choice?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. robustheologian

    robustheologian
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    119
    The Arminians on this board seems to have difficulty seeing the theological reality, implications, and problems of their position.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...