The ministry of death and the 10 commandments...

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Gunther, Aug 26, 2003.

  1. Gunther

    Gunther
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    Sunday, the preacher brought a sermon from 2 Cor. 3.

    Consider verses 7-11:

    7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
    8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
    9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
    10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
    11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

    Paul here equates the "letters engraved in stone" to:
    ministry of death
    ministry of condemnation
    that which fades away

    If this is how Paul views the 10 commandments (the only letters engraved in stone), to the ministry of death and condemnation, what business to "christians" have trying to lift them up?

    This is all taken directly from Paul folks.
     
  2. Johnv

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    We've not supposed. Jeses elsewhere talk about knowing the letter of the law while ignoring the heart of the law. There's a concurring biblical theme not to "elevate" scripture to the point of worshipping scripture.

    As for the 10 Commandments, we're simply supposed to write them in our hearts, as writing them on stone is of no spiritual value.
     
  3. Jailminister

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    Gunther, The preacher got it partly right, but I am afraid he has missed the point of the Battle in Montgomery. The 10 Commandments represents what God told us is the moral law. We are not under the burden of the law any more, because God has written them on our heart. You see the Jews only and still only have the stones. We as believers have them written on our heart. The moral principles are still around, but it was Jesus that completed and out did the stones. Now does that mean that the 10 Commandments are not still truth? NO. Does that mean that our forefathers did not respect and honor them and made them part of the fabric of our nation? NO. What They represent is a principle. Notice those who want to get rid of them are anti God and anti-Christian(ACLU and SPLC). They hate God and what God means. Surely even your preacher(I notice you didn't say pastor)should be able to understand that fact. Do you want to line up with the ungodly, does he?


    Luk 19:37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;

    Luk 19:38 Saying, Blessed [be] the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

    Luk 19:39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.

    Luk 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
     
  4. Me2

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    Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
    Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
    Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
    Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
    Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    God uses the Law to draw us To Jesus Christ.

    we all must admit to transgressing Gods Law before we would actually be in need of any Christ.

    The law has always been designed to kill the works of the flesh. upon first initially recognizing its effects of our mortal failings. we admit of being a "sinner"

    hense we cry to God for mercy. He draws us to the need of a sacrifice and mediator. A Christ.


    afterwards The holy spirit continues to use the law to kill all works of the flesh. we use the terms "die to self". this is whats happening. we through our own tendencies use the law to follow as pleasing to God until we find out that in and of ourselves we cant. the law kills all works of our flesh till we cry for mercy and SUBMIT TO JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.

    without completely dying to the law. we will always believe we dont need to completely humble ourselves to another..namely Jesus christ...the lord.


    when we preach that God's law is good.
    we preach life and death.

    Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
    Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
    Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
    Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
    Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].
    Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

    Me2
     
  5. Gunther

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    John, no where are we told to write or even try to live after the 10 commandments. Why ignore what Paul said? To seek after the 10 commandments, is to seek after condemnation and death. Seek the N.C. promises and the ministry of the Spirit which is so glorious, it seems the first covenant didn't have any glory at all.

    Christ gave two explicit statements when asked about the law:

    Love God with all of your being
    Love your neighbor as yourself

    So Christ when from 10 to 2.
     
  6. Gunther

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    1. How?

    2. There is no such thing as the "moral law". If you said that the 10 commandments were the basis of the law, that would be different. Stop with the artificial division of the law.

    3. Agreed.

    4. It has done NOTHING for them. The law made bad Jews and worse Christians (to paraphrase Dr. Bob). We have "christians" today who are trying to reimpose the 10 commandments upon all of society today though.

    5. So our goal is to persuade others to do the same. The church was never ordained to be the watchdog over the government.

    6. So we should persuade others to look to Christ, and not the 10 commandments. What you and others like you are doing is trying to treat the symptom and not the problem.

    7. As a whole, they have been done away with and replaced by another.

    8. Zero relevance. Many of the forefathers respected God and the benefits of a religious society. Unfortunately, many of them are in hell. Alotta good it did them.

    9. I agree that they do serve as the basis for law. I don't know that anyone argues against that. That isn't the point though. Let us stay on track.

    10. And...?

    11. Having religious icons and symbols and such do not make people love God anymore or less. Why is this concept so difficult. If a person has a fish on the back of their car, I immediately think the person is religious. So what? A moral society is not better off than a pagan one.

    12. No more than I do the ignorant.

    Btw, the preacher was a guest. What did you want me to call him?
     
  7. Jailminister

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    Gunther, 2Cr 3:3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

    We don't write them down on our hearts, God does.

    Mat 22:36-40 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    He did not discount the 10, he summarized them.
     
  8. Johnv

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    Good point. "Love the Lord your God" summarizes the first four. "Love your neighbor" summarizes the rest.

    But Gunther does bring up a good point, methinks.
     
  9. Jailminister

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    . How?
    The battle is not over stones, it is a battle for our country recognition of God in ALL areas of life

    2. There is no such thing as the "moral law". If you said that the 10 commandments were the basis of the law, that would be different. Stop with the artificial division of the law.
    You have bad teaching. We have Moral law and it has always been there even before it was written down on stone. We had ceremonial laws. some the Jews still try to keep today. We have Civil Law and they change with society. Wake Up!!

    3. Agreed.
    [​IMG]

    4. It has done NOTHING for them. The law made bad Jews and worse Christians (to paraphrase Dr. Bob). We have "christians" today who are trying to reimpose the 10 commandments upon all of society today though.
    The Moral Law is what God says it is. It is the standard. What this humanist crowd wants is to do away with moral laws and let everyone "do their thing". They want to erase God out of the minds of the people. They won't, but we must stand against the "workers of iniquities".

    5. So our goal is to persuade others to do the same. The church was never ordained to be the watchdog over the government.
    6. So we should persuade others to look to Christ, and not the 10 commandments. What you and others like you are doing is trying to treat the symptom and not the problem.
    7. As a whole, they have been done away with and replaced by another.
    No they haven't. If anything they have jsut been clarified.


    8. Zero relevance. Many of the forefathers respected God and the benefits of a religious society. Unfortunately, many of them are in hell. Alotta good it did them.
    Well I will try not to Judge the forefathers because I did not know them personally. I have my doubts about a few of them, but for the most part their wiritings were pro-Jesus.

    9. I agree that they do serve as the basis for law. I don't know that anyone argues against that. That isn't the point though. Let us stay on track.
    [​IMG]

    10. And...?
    Doesn't that speak for itself.

    11. Having religious icons and symbols and such do not make people love God anymore or less. Why is this concept so difficult. If a person has a fish on the back of their car, I immediately think the person is religious. So what? A moral society is not better off than a pagan one.
    Here may lie your problem. A godly, Moral nation that Loves the Creatot God is much better off than a pagan one. Look at history.

    12. No more than I do the ignorant.
    Then don't line up with either. Of course Jesus did. He had the educated and the ignorant that surrounded him, but the ungodly shunned and eventually killed Him.

    Btw, the preacher was a guest. What did you want me to call him?
    I only asked that because I was wondering what your pastor thought of the message. Unless of course the preacher had been your pastor.
    ------
     
  10. KenH

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    The two combine all 10. For example, the apostle Paul wrote:

    Romans 13:9 (ESV)
    The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

    God's moral law is applicable to all mankind:

    Romans 2:14-15 (ESV)
    [14]For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. [15] They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

    In the New Covenant the moral law is moved from stone to hearts -

    2 Cor. 3:3 (ESV)
    And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
     
  11. Gunther

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    Jesus gave the great commandment and the one like it as the basis for ALL OF THE LAW and ALL OF THE PROPHETS.

    So, while you felluz cling to the 10 that are but a part of the part, I will cling to the 2.

    We would be a better society if we proclaimed the 2 instead of the 10. Why? Because the 2 give the motive to actually obeying.
     
  12. KenH

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    As long as we are trying to follow God's will, we can argue over this from now until Doomsday. [​IMG]
     
  13. Tim

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    According to Christ, the 10 commandments "hang on" the 2 commandments. So which is greater? Clearly the 2 are thus greater than the 10. To say the 2 are a summary of the 10 gives the opposite impression.

    The 10 comprise the Old Covenant given to Israel.
    The 2 comprise the New covenant given to believers. So, I'll take the 2 and recognize that the 10 have faded away (Heb. 8:13), and been replaced by that which is far superior.

    So, I'm with you, Gunther!

    A believer in the better covenant,

    Tim
     

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