The Mormom's Are Coming!

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Justified, Aug 17, 2002.

  1. Justified

    Justified
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    The Mormoms want to visit us this coming Thursday night.

    Need some advise on witnessing to them. Perferabley from someone who came out of this cult or has studied with them before. [​IMG]

    I also look at it, as long as they are with me, they are not at some one elses house, and drawing them into their pit. :D

    "It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version ;)
     
  2. Don

    Don
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    Don't let yourself be drawn into a "comparison" game.

    Watch for the salesman questions (the type where you can only answer "yes").

    And don't be argumentative.
     
  3. Justified

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    Well I just watched the God Makers I & II. :D

    I can't believe how much they parrallel the Masonic Lodge! And that I know about. :eek:

    Are they sure Joseph Smith wasn't a Mason? :confused:

    "It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version ;)
     
  4. Pete Richert

    Pete Richert
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    You will have a tough time. They have no intention of listening to what you have to say, and if they are cornered by Scripture itself, they will just comment "well somebody back at the church knows the answer".

    In all honesty, I act quite the same. When I am in sharing with Hindus, I usually just zone off when they are telling me about their religion, and when they point to all the seemingly inconsistences in the Bible I often have to admit that I don't know the exact answer even though books have been writen for hundreds of years harmonizing and answering all the tough questions.
     
  5. rlvaughn

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    Justified, both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were Masons, and brought quite a bit of Masonry into their religion.
     
  6. tyndale1946

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    Justified said:
    ... That's a good analogy but personally I would not invite them to mine... btw make sure you don't fall into their pit yourself... Brother Glen :eek:
     
  7. Justified

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    That explains it, now! :eek:

    I thought I recognized their teachings and rituals. I worked in the Masanic Lodge in Milwaukee for over 5 years and learned and saw much that was shocking. :(

    "It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version ;)
     
  8. Baptist Believer

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    I've dealt with Mormons before. I "studied" with two Mormon missionaries over the course of four months when I was pastoring. Finally their stake leader forbid them to talk to me anymore. One of them got very shaky in his faith and had an "emergency transfer" home. The other came to tell me that he was not allowed to ever speak with me again. The stake leader informed me that I was a "son of perdition" and would only hurt his faith.

    Fortunately, I gave both of them a commentary on Romans to work through (so they would know what Christians believe) that I hope was not confiscated from them.

    I would be happy to give your some pointers, but your hostility toward me in other forums makes me wonder if you would accept any theological advice from me.

    Let me know.
     
  9. Justified

    Justified
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    Baptist Believer,

    I would not turn down Biblical and experiencal advice from anyone. I will look at it and eat the meat and spit out the bones! hehehe :D

    And here, your advise could be very helpful and appreciated! :eek: :D

    "It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version ;)
     
  10. Baptist Believer

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    Fine. Give me an hour or two to put together my thoughts (and eat dinner) and I'll post some general principles that I've found helpful.

    By the way, what do you know of Mormonism? I believe you said you've seen the Godmakers. Have you read any books or done any other study?
     
  11. Justified

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    Thank you for your concern and help! ;)

    Actually I just got done watching the "The Mormon Dilemma", and I will be watching them again. I also have a couple of pieces of liturature from our church that specificaly addresses witnessing to mormons.

    Also I was advised that when the intro duce them selves that they will use the title "Elder" So & So, and that I should ask for their first name and address them by their first names only.

    Again, thank you! :D

    "It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version ;)
     
  12. Rosa

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    As far as getting their first name...that might be difficult. It saddens me to say that my Brother and his children are Mormon's. The oldest son is on a "Mission" to South America. When he writes to his father now, he always signs his letters Elder and then his last name. The LDS church does a good job indoctrinating their missionaries.
    My suggestion is keep them in the Bible and don't let them get in the book of Mormon. Talk them into reading John 1:1-18. It is confusing for missionaries because they don't teach the God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit to the new missionaries. But most important keep them in the Bible and if they ask to pray for you make sure that you lead the prayer. It is your house you get to lead the prayer.
    May the Good Lord bless you as you wittness to these young men that come into your home.

    [ August 19, 2002, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Rosa ]
     
  13. Baptist Believer

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    I've had some phone calls and other interruptions, so it's not finished yet. It's also getting kind of long, I'm going to revise it into an outline format. Check back before you go to bed.
     
  14. Baptist Believer

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    Talking to Mormons 101

    What you are up against
    ---------------------------------

    Enormous cultural pressure -- the missionaries travel in twos and have supervision from the local stake leaders. They have left families and girlfriends at home and may not be allowed to return if they leave Mormonism. They cannot marry until they return from their mission, so if they leave their faith they are also leaving their girlfriends. The missionaries watch each other to make sure they don't lose their faith or fall into sin. If one detects a problem with the other, they will report to the stake president and the missionary may be removed without notice. The missionaries are never alone during their mission. They are even encouraged to leave the bathroom door open slightly when they use the restroom or shower so that they will be less inclined to sexually gratify themselves since someone else could catch them.

    Detailed training and argumentation techniques -- the missionaries are trained to talk to Christians (especially Baptists) about Mormonism. They use many of the same terms and lingo that Christians use, but often radically redefine what the words mean. It is often very frustrating to go around in theological circles because you are literally speaking different relgious languages. Make a habit of defining every Christian term as you use it the first time. Try not to use churchy talk to avoid this trouble if possible.

    A plan to undermine your faith even if they don't win you over -- Mormon missionaries will often try to undermine your faith even if they suspect that you will not convert. They want to break your faith so that you will consider them spiritual authorities in the future. As you mentioned, they like to use the term "Elder" when referring to each other to give themselves an air of authority. Ask their first names and have them call you by your first name to break down the pretense and of authority. That will put you on an equal playing field.

    Your goals
    ---------------

    To learn more about Mormonism -- this is just about guaranteed. If your discussions continue and you ask good questions and present your faith clearly, you will become well-versed with Mormonism.

    To learn more about your faith -- you will definitely learn more about your faith, especially what aspects of your faith are essential and what is not. You will need to focus on the most important doctrines, the nature of God, the person of Christ, the desperate nature of being lost and responsible for sinning against God and the way of faith - not works - to a new life in Christ.

    To lead Mormon missionaries to Christ -- This should always be your goal, but in reality it is not very likely to happen. Beyond all of the pressure to stay Mormon and the way their partner and the stake leader monitors them, they will be transfered out or forbidden to talk to you before they are likely to come to Christ.

    Dangers
    ------------

    It is much easier to win an argument than it is to be a witness -- since you have the truth on your side, you may be able to put them in a position where you show how ridiculous their beliefs are... If you find yourself in that situation, make the point quickly and move on to your next point. (You've won the "point" and further rubbing it in will actually embarrass them and have the opposite effect. Once I was talking to some missionaries and they wanted me to read a passage out of "Pearl of Great Price", one of their "inspired" books. I did a bad thing and actually read the passage in context and it taught how everything that is alive has a spirit and can become a god and rule over their own worlds creating in their own image. I asked, "Does that mean that a potato can become a god?" They balked. I asked the question again. Finally one of them said yes after a long silence. I started laughing and pressed the point about there being celery gods, tuna gods, potatos gods, flea gods, oak gods, tarantula gods and duck gods. They sat in embarrassed silence and I realized that I had embarrassed them and they were now closed to hearing any more from me until the next time we met.) At the end of your session, you can "wrap up" by mentioning your "concerns" with their belief system and include the point as an issue.

    It is much easier to drive a Mormon into atheism than toward Christ -- it is possible for a modestly experienced Christian to triumph over a Mormon in a debate and demonstrate that their religion is false. Unfortunately, since their religion is a house of cards based on Joseph Smith and his "infallible" teaching, they are liable to toss their faith away after their mission tour instead of coming to Christ. Remember, they've been convinced that mainstream Christians are completely deceived and misled by false teaching and they are not likely to respect Christian doctrine even if they don't trust their own. The best method I've found is to work on small but important areas of doctrine and gradually replace their faulty Mormon teaching with Bible teaching. I can be tricky and is very time-consuming, but when you do it you put a little truth time-bomb in their hearts that the Holy Spirit can use to convict them after the pressure is off and they have a chance to reflect on their mission and their faith.

    It is always possible for believers to be taken in by Mormons. It is a very deceptive and demonic religion with many traps. If you feel you are having too many doubts or problems talking to the Mormons, call off your appointments. God will not be displeased and you will be better for it. Not everyone is meant to work with cultists. Some people have special gifts and personalities that give them the patience and detactment necessary to work with these seriously deceived people.

    Preparation
    ----------------

    Pray. Pray. Pray. Pray. Pray. -- You are going up against spiritual darkness and the power of the enemy. You need wisdom from God, the power of the Holy Spirit and the compassion of Jesus to do this work.

    Have your own King James Bible handy -- Mormon missionaries (the common Salt Lake LSD variety) use only the King James. They say it is authoritative as "correctly interpreted" but that's not really true. (My Mormons got so frustrated with me because I was always quoting Bible to them. They originally told me that my Bible had "many plain and precious things" removed and that their books restored those doctrines. I always responded that it was very strange that my Bible with "missing parts" was able to refute their "complete gospel". They got so frustrated by my use of my incomplete Bible that they finally confessed that they thought the King James had faulty doctrine and was useless. That gave me the opportunity to show they how deceptive they were at the first study when they claimed to believe the Bible and hold it as one of their standards of faith and practice.)

    I suggest that you read some of the material at Watchman Fellowship to prepare yourself for the Mormon worldview and terminology:

    http://www.watchman.org/lds/index.htm

    I've found the Watchman Fellowship to be a very helpful source. I've supported their ministry and have purchased hard to find materials there. They take great pains to be very accurate with their materials.

    What to expect
    --------------------

    Two Mormon males - usually one will do most of the talking while the other one will assist. Often one is less experienced and is learning from the other.

    A series of study guides - the first guide is designed to sound nice and Christian, but is designed to make the unwary Christian believe that they need some sort of earthy prophet to lead the church. They will quote from the book of Amos about the need to know the Lord's will through a prophet. They will ask a bunch of leading questions that expect yes or no answers. Don't even answer quickly. Think about your answers first because the questions are designed to lead you down a path without considering the ramifications of your responses. I rarely answered yes or no but instead stated my understanding of the situation.

    The missionaries are sternly instructed not to deviate from the study guides. If you take them off topic, they may or may not answer your question and they will dutifully continue the study. You will not have much of an opportunity to share your side until the end of the "lesson" where they press for a commitment to read a selection from the Book of Mormon and pray for God to give you a "burning in your bosom" that the Mormon message is true.

    Issues
    ---------

    The main issue will be authority -- Who has authority to give the proper interpretation of scripture? They also make much of successionism (the doctrine of authority for the sacraments or ordinances that is allegedly passed from Jesus through an ordained priesthood to the present day). Of course most Baptists believe that our authority comes directly from Jesus Christ and there is no priestly line of special powers necessary. Ultimately the real question is whether you should continue in your faith or toss everything you know based on the questionable testimony of Joseph Smith, Jr. and a "burning in your bosom" that you allegedly receive when you pray about whether or not the Book of Mormon is true.

    Suggested method
    --------------------------

    Hit the main issues of authority, the trustworthiness of scripture (don't fall into the trap of claiming inerrancy because you will have a very difficult time convincing them -- they have a whole ream of "errors" that you will spend refuting and miss the important point of showing that the Bible is reliable -- inerrancy won't save them, but Jesus can! They may embrace inerrancy after they believe.), the nature of God, the Trinity (they will beat on the doctrine of the Trinity since most Christians don't have a working knowledge of the doctrine), the person and work of Christ, and the need for salvation by grace through faith.

    Discussions will often go around the mulberry bush unless you make them stick to the point. Keep a notepad handy so you can write down their objections as a matter of discussion once your finish making your point. Otherwise you won't get to finish and the whole thing will descend into an argument with no one's mind changed and an opportunity missed.

    The end result of your discussions
    ----------------------------------------------

    Don't be disappointed in your discussions if there is no visible change in your Mormon friends. The Spirit can work with them long after they leave if you sow the seed of the word of God in their lives.

    I will pray for your appointment.
     
  15. Baptist Believer

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    I'll post more if I think of anything else essential. Please feel free to ask me any questions and I'll do my best to help.
     
  16. bjonson

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    If you are going to be talking with Mormons, I strongly suggest spending some time here first:

    http://www.mrm.org/

    Remember, the Holy Spirit will do the work!

    Brian
     
  17. peaches-ohio

    peaches-ohio
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    Don't you think it is rather rude not to adress someone as an elder if that is thier title? I see it as saying "sir" if that is what someone prefers. The mormons have been to see me. I did not become a mormon, and they respected my decision. I found them to be very well mannered and kind. In addition I still watch byutv. I take what is good and let the rest fall away. The mormons do many good works, and in general do better than most of us concerning giving, prayer, modesty, and family respect. If anything would lead me to mormonism it is their example.
     
  18. Justified

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    Peaches,

    That is exactly one of the main reasons that they get so many people! Is because they appear to be doing good, but people don't realize is that it is because they have to, to reach their goal in the after life. :eek:

    "It is always better to stand up for conservatism, then to fall into liberalism" Justified Version ;)
     
  19. Baptist Believer

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    "Sir" is a gender-oriented sign of respect. "Elder" is a religiously-oriented title that denotes greater wisdom and spiritual experience. Since most Mormon missionaries are somewhere around 20 years old, they are not our physical elders (at least not mine). Also, they do not have greater spiritual experience than I do because they are involved in a false religion preaching false doctrine. They should be respected as human beings, but Christians should not support their delusions of spiritual authority.

    Yes, they can be quite nice. I genuinely liked the two Mormon missionaries I worked with and still pray for them by name 14 years later. I also like my Mormon coworkers and have built friendships with them. As we our relationship grows, I will earn the "right" to speak to them about their faith.

    The Mormons are proponents of morality, but they have embraced a false gospel. (The gospel is not morality.) Unfortunately for the Mormons, they can be excellent Mormons and be very moral, devout and helpful to others, but they are still sinners in need of the grace of God.

    Yes, but the false doctrine they teach is not so nice. The more I've studied Mormonism and its doctrine, the more I realize how demonically deceptive it is.

    Many fine people are caught in Mormonism and it is our Christian responsibility to help them find their way to freedom.

    [ August 20, 2002, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]
     
  20. Helen

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    There are some basic points that are important to know about the LDS doctrines:

    1. They redefine many important terms. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE DEFINITIONS STRAIGHT BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE! Or you will just be talking past each other and will 'seem' to agree when, if you knew what they were really talking about, you would not agree at all.

    Here are some of the terms:
    God the Father
    Jesus
    Holy Spirit
    salvation
    sin
    atonement
    heaven
    hell

    ... your discussion will hang up on these points at the beginning. You will never get any farther if you follow through with comparing what they say with the Bible. Don't let them run you off the track. Stay with definitions and remind them that you cannot have any other reasonable discussion unless you all agree with what you are talking about.

    2. Here, however, are some related questions.

    -- A. Is it true that you believe that God the Father once had a body and was also once human and a sinner?

    -- B. Is it true that you believe Jesus and Satan are brothers?

    -- C. Is it true that you believe that a man must pay for certain of his own sins?

    3. There are four things which the Bible says are finished and LDS doctrine says not:

    -- A. creation
    -- B. the law
    -- C. atonement for all sin
    -- D. general revelation

    If you need help with any of this, email me and I can either give you my phone and we can talk or simply email back information which will help. I live in a Mormon neighborhood and growing up my best friend in high school was Mormon. I love some of them dearly, so there is no personal animosity, only fear for their eternity.

    Do not PM me as my PM is out of whack. Please if you choose to email me do so at [email protected]

    God bless you and give you wisdom and a great calm and peace.
     

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