The mountains of freewill and election arguing about whose eternal life valley it is

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Christlifter, Mar 31, 2005.

  1. Christlifter

    Christlifter
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    "A false balance is an abmoination to the Lord"

    "...But GRACE and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ"

    "All that the Father giveth unto me shall come unto me, and him that cometh unto me, I will in NO wise cast out"

    "For whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely."

    "For he that hath begun a good work IN you shall perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"

    "Give diligence to make your calling and election sure, for if ye do these things, ye shall never fail."
     
  2. whetstone

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    That about sums it up for me. :D
     
  3. Solo Christo

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    Amen. But I see no arguing here. :confused:
     
  4. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Christ lifter;
    You're declaring this to be an abomination. Just where is this from?
    Mike
     
  5. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
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  6. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    That's fine Christlifter, but NO Calvinist is willing to agree that election is ALSO a human thing. I can elect to believe or not believe. I can elect to hear the word or not hear the word, I can elect to accept the truth or reject the truth.

    Election is not solely the domain of God, because HE made us in HIS image.
     
  7. rc

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    No man seeks after God... no not one.

    Christlifter.... Calvary chapel "in the middleism....yuk...
    I have more respect for ILL and Wes that stand on a side than one who doesn't at all.

    Bad Theology dishonors God and hurts people...
    Pink
     
  8. Wes Outwest

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    And what side do you say that I am standing on?

    I will tell you that I am on Christ's side, not John Calvin's or Jacobus Arminius' side!

    I oppose false doctrine espoused by both of them, but Arminius leans more toward Jesus than does John Calvin!

    So which side am I on? I am on the OUTSIDE of CALVINISM and The OUTSIDE of ARMINIANISM!
     
  9. rc

    rc
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    Wes... you quack like a duck and look like a duck... your a duck...arminianist. You agree with all of his 5 points... ALL of them... stop lying to yourself.
     
  10. Wes Outwest

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    I do not even know what Arminius' points are!
     
  11. TCassidy

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    Jacob Harmenszoon (Latinized to James Arminius) (b. 1559-d. 1609), educated at Leiden, was a Calvinist who differed only in one point with the classic Calvinism of his day.

    Where the classic Calvinists believed in election due to the determinate foreknowledge of God, Arminius believe in election due to the foreknowledge of God.

    That one word difference has been blown into the Calvinist/Arminian debates of the past 500 years.

    The classic Calvinist position is that God elects men according to His own good pleasure but Arminius believed God elected men according to His foreknowledge of their eventual faith in Christ.

    It was not Arminius but his followers who produced the doctrinal nightmare of the Remonstrance, the 5 points of which grew out of the debate and were codified in 1610 after Arminius' death.

    They are:

    1. Free will or Human ability.

    2. Conditional election.

    3. Universal redemption or General Atonement.

    4. The Holy Spirit can be effectually resisted.

    5. Falling from grace. (However, the Articles of Remonstrance do state, "But whether they [the saved - TC] are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was deliv­ered them, of losing a good conscience, of be­coming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, be­fore we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind.") So they could not agree on whether a truly saved person could lose his salvation so they chose the middle ground, but do seem to be saying that the saved remain so by their own willingness to yield to the power of the Holy Spirit.
     
  12. rc

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    We went over this a couple months ago...
    You believe "basically" against tulip correct?
    TULIP was written in opposition to the Remonstrants (Arminians) in the council of Dordt. You said the remonstrants where correct. Thus, agreeing with them... I understand that you might not have "received" your understanding of your theology directly from this history (by reading a church history book and saying... "I believe in what the remonstrants said!") And you might of came up with it solely by your study, solely secluded by all other teachings of man i.e. studies, pastors, teachers... but this is just what you agree with that's all..
     
  13. Wes Outwest

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    Thank you TCassidy,
    It appears that I am more in tune with Arminius because, I can see more in God's creation than man's inabilities as defined under Calvinism.

    I can see where man does have free will, the bible is full of scriptures that tell us to choose, choice implies free will, human life itself implies free will of man within the constraints of God's creation. Shoot, we have a space station circling the earth every ninety minutes or so, with live human beings on board, it is an exercise of man's will to leave the environment God placed man into. However man must take his own synthetic environment with him, to "slip the surly bonds of earth", and "fly" in order to "touch the hand of God". Man is always seeking to get to closer to God, even without knowing what or where God may be, think about it.

    The bible is full of examples of conditional election, Judas being one example of election to fulfill a prophesy.

    The bible, especially in Jesus words tells us that His Atonement is for SIN, thus "General Atonement"; in order for man to be able, through man's faith, to have everlasting life. However, not all men will come to faith in God, thus destroying "universal redemption".

    The bible tells us of an "unforgiveable sin" and describes it as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Thus the Holy Spirit can be effectually resisted, else there would be no such warning!

    The bible is full of scriptures warning the faithful to not fall away. It repeatedly warns of the consequence of doing so. If it is not possible to fall away; and rc on another topic declared that man can change his mind, then there would be no reason whatever to include those warnings to "readers and hearers of the word".

    Who reads the Word of God the most? Believers! Why do believers that have no possibility of losing their faith need to be warned against doing so?

    Calvinism is quite simply wrong!
     
  14. TCassidy

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    I must admit I find your answer a bit confusing. You say you stand outside both Arminianism and Calvinism. Let's examine that.

    The Calvinist believes in total depravity the Arminian doesn't. You disagree with both? How? Does the fall effect every part of man or is there some part of man that is good enough to choose God in and of itself?

    The Calvinist believes in unconditional election, the Arminian believes in conditional election. You disagree with both? How? If election is neither unconditional or conditional, what is it?

    The Calvinist believes in limited atonement the Arminian believes in unlimited atonement. You disagree with both? How? Is the atonement limited or not?

    The Calvinist believes in irresistible grace and the Arminian believes in resistible grace. You say you disagree with both. How? Is grace resistible or not? Is God Omnipotent in giving His grace or not?

    The Calvinist believes the saints will persevere in the faith, the Arminians don't (or aren't sure). You say you disagree with both? How? Are the saved eternally secure in Christ or not?

    My suggestion is to get off the fence and decide what you really believe.

    I can understand your eschewing the word "Calvinist." I do too. But I am an historic, Particular Baptist standing unashamedly in the doctrines and practices of those historic Baptists, including the Soteriology of those historic Baptists, Particular redemption. [​IMG]
     
  15. TCassidy

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    Well, at least you seem to be well on the road to making up your mind. [​IMG]
    I think you might have a basic misunderstanding of what "free will" really is. The term "free will" is used in opposition to the term "bondage of the will." "Bondage of the will" simply means that the lost man is bound in trespass and sin and his will is not free to please God but is bound in sin and death.
    And what would that condition be? What was it about you that God found to be so attractive that He just had to save you? What was it about you that was so good it just had to be preserved?
    If the atonement is universal, and everybody's sins were paid for on the cross, what is it that sends a man to hell? How can a person whose sins have all been paid for ever go to hell?
    If their sins are forgiven what prevents them from coming to Christ?
    I can't help think you may have a basic misunderstanding of the nature of the unpardonable sin. It was said of the Pharisees who saw the great miracles of the Lord during His earthly ministry and attributed them to the power of Satan. It is not something we can do today, but was, in that day, proof positive of the fact that they were unregenerate and still in the bondage of sin and death.
    If our salvation is based on our being careful not to fall away, then it is by our own good works and not by the grace of God so, whether or not grace is resistible is made moot for the bible says that works (being careful not to fall away) and grace are incompatible and cancel each other out. Romans 11:6.
    We read the bible because we love the Author. [​IMG]
    You saying so does not make it so. Can you support your assertions from scripture?
     
  16. rc

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    You saying so does not make it so. Can you support your assertions from scripture?


    That's all you'll get TCassidy... A bunch of eisogesis and "your wrongs" ...
     
  17. Wes Outwest

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    OK!
    "The fall" as you refer to it did not change the man that God created. It changed the relationship that man had with his Creator. The creator is Holy and PURE, man by disobeying the creator, has estranged himself from the creator through sin, all the while man retains every capability and ability that God created man to have in the first place. The alienation between man and God is spiritual, therefore from God's perspective we became dead in spirit, the spiritual connection severed by us. However our spirit remains alive else our flesh could not live. Jesus tells us that it is the spirit that gives life to the flesh. No flesh could live without a living spirit.

    Jesus told us that IF we have faith the size of a mustard seed we could tell a mountain to remove itself into the sea. I take that to mean that man with faith has power, while man without faith has no power. It doesn't mean that God's spirit must be in us to have faith! ALL of the greatest accomplishments of mankind were made because man had faith that it could be done. So, Man did not lose that by "falling".

    Man did not lose the ability to learn! Man did not lose the ability to communicate! man did not lose anything that God created man to have except the close personal relationship with his creator.

    I do not disagree with both, I lean toward Arminian understanding of Election, but just do not accept every jot and tittle of the arminian understanding.

    If we are speaking of God the son's atonement of sin, Atonement is not in anyway limited. All the sins of the world have been atoned. Yes, even the sin that Eli's house practiced. The reason there was no Atonement for Eli's house is that Eli's house refused to repent! Because one refuses to repent, there can be no atonement for the one. Atonement deals with sin, but so must the person! Sin no longer has any power over man's salvation because through faith man, even the worst sinners of the world, can have everlasting life. However their faith must be followed and or accompanied by repentance, and confession, else it be dead faith. Eli's family believed there is a God, and may have believed in God because they cursed God continually, the clay telling the potter what to make with it!

    God's grace is God's unilateral behavior toward man! He favors ALL mankind, behaving toward all with Grace. God gives no man grace, because God instilled grace as a useable attribute in the species of man. That grace enables man to behave graciously towards whomever the man determines to be gracious toward. We are made in the image of God and our grace works the same way that God's grace works. God is behaving toward us today in his Grace. He allows all mankind to approach him directly regardless of the mans condition. Sinners and saints alike can talk to God, and hear God, and his Word. If that were not the case no man could be saved through faith! No man could have his sins forgiven if he is not able to confess them to God. No man could blaspheme the Holy Spirit! For if God were not in 'communion' with man God would not know that someone had blasphemed. God's grace for man is immutable, and all mankind can and does take advantage of it. It is like the sunshine and the rain, all mankind are treated equal under God's Grace.

    I believe that all who live their faith in God will persevere. I believe there are many who claim faith, and yes even some who live by faith and not by sight, who will abandon their faith in God to the miracle making Anti-Christ, thinking him to be Christ returned. I believe that so long as man has the ability to change his own mind, that there is the danger of man changing his faith which resides in the mind and spirit of man.

    Only those who stay in the Word of God, and continue in constant communication with God, doing good works, and doing all they can to build their faith in God will persevere.

    you falsely accuse me of being a fence sitter, I have no time to sit on a fence while walking the straight and narrow. I either walk with God, or I don't. You can decide for yourself whether or not you think I am Christian, and you can condemn me for not falling for Calvinist dogma, That is your choice, but it has no bearing on the salvation I will be given by my persevering in my faith in God! You cannot be saved for me!

    I am Christian of no particular denomination who attends Baptist churches mostly, though I have been Methodist, Studies Catholicism, Mormonism, and Lutheranism. I am a frequent attender of Calvary Chapels, but for now a member of a small Baptist chuch which I live nearby, and trust the pastor who, Like Chuck Smith, delivers the Christian, not the Calvinist nor the Arminian messages.
     
  18. TCassidy

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    Really? The fall did not change man? So, when the bible says that man is now born sinful, which Adam was not, you say that is not a difference? Adam was born immortal but lost his immortality due to sin. Do you think all men today are born immortal, or do you believe "it is appointed unto man once to die?" Adam was born "God centered" and now men are all born "self centered." You don't think that is a change? Adam was born not subject to pain and disease, to the debility and bodily disintegration of old age. All men today are born subject to pain and disease, to the debility and bodily disintegration of old age. You don't think that is a change?
    God created Adam with the capability for personal fellowship with Him, but today man has no such capability until he is born again.
    Make up your mind! Is the spirit alive or dead?
    I can't help but think you have a very poor understanding of John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
    Sorry, but Jesus was not talking to you. He was telling the Jews, in the context of the Kingdom, that, in that day, they could tell a mountain to move and it would. You can't claim a promise that was not made to you.
    So, when the bible says unregenerate men are "without faith" you say the bible is wrong?
    You didn't answer the question. If election is conditional what are the conditions?
    So, because all sins have been atoned for all persons everywhere, without exception, will go to heaven?
    So when the bible says that God gives man grace you think the bible is wrong?
    So salvation is earned by staying in the word and doing good works even thought he bible says that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works? Do you think the bible is wrong in Ephesians 2:8-10?
    Shame on you! I never said you were not a Christian, nor did I condemn you for anything, nor did I suggest anything at all regarding your salvation.

    Now, can you please answer my questions? Is man depraved or not? If there are conditions on election what are they? If the atonement is unlimited how can anybody ever go to hell? If grace is resistible how can any fallen person every get saved for the bible says that none seek after God? If a saved person can lose his salvation by what he does then he is trusting in his works and not in Christ, isn't he?

    How can you lose what you don't have? If you have placed your eternal destiny in the hands of Christ (John 10:28-29) then you can't lose it! If you can lose it you have never turned it over to Christ!

    Think about it.
     
  19. ILUVLIGHT

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    Tcassidy;
    Man is a sinner yes but we are not told that man lost his hearing and understanding because of it.
    You claim it. Now prove it's true with scripture.
    Being dead spiritually is seperation from God and is not a disability to understand and hear the gospel. It is not a moral inability to choose what is against his desires either. We all have to choose what the flesh doesn't like for one reason or another.
    In my Bible the word spirit is spelled with a lower case "s" meaning mans spirit.
    In the New Testament Jews and Gentiles have no difference.
    Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
    Where does it say this the word unregenerate It isn't even in scripture. Except for the Calvinist version.
    Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    It didn't say get saved first and we'll talk later.
    I know a four year old that can do better than that for a question. Wes is not pelagain, nor Arminian why can't you just accept that.
    The Bible is never wrong but I'll bet you are.
    Salvation is never earned but it isn't given to anyone with out faith first and I don't have to redefine words to prove it.
    No but the Calvinist interpretation is.
    Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
    No you just gave an innocent brother the third degree with nothing but assumption on your part knowing better all the time.
    Shame on you..... [​IMG]
    May Christ Shine His light On Us all;
    Mike
     
  20. TCassidy

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    I didn't say he did. Where in the world did you get that idea?
    Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    I never said it was. Where did you get this "the lost can't hear" idea?
    The point is that the lost man not only can't choose God, he doesn't want to. Romans 3:11.
    Where do you think life comes from? John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life." See also Matthew 7:14; 10:39; 16:25; and, of course, John 1:4 "In him was life; and the life was the light of men." Well, you get the idea.
    Oh boy! Okay. Say to any mountain (you pick the mountain) "Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea" and see what happens and get back to me.
    So, you believe lost people are born again?
    So, faith is the condition of salvation, we already know that, but, of course, the question was "what are the conditions of election." You changed the question then answered your change not my question.
    Well, I am sure all 4 year olds are smarter than I am, but you still didn't answer the question. Here it is again. "So, because all sins have been atoned for all persons everywhere, without exception, will go to heaven?" It is actually a very easy question to answer. I really don't know why you work so hard at avoiding it. [​IMG]
    Does that mean you agree with me and that God does give us grace?
    Okay, you say faith preceded salvation. Can you show me one instance where a person had faith in Christ as his personal savior but was still lost? Also, where does faith come from? Did you have it before you were saved, or is it the work of the Holy Spirit of God in your heart?
    I am not sure what you think the "Calvinist interpretation" is, but we will let that pass (I realize how hard some of these questions are for you to answer) but what does Romans 5:2 have to do with Ephesians 2:8-10? After all, I am sure you read verse 1 first, didn't you? "Therefore being justified by faith." Oh! Paul is talking about saved people who have access to God's grace to enable them to stand up for Christ!
    I am truly sorry if my questions offended you. But how will we ever learn what others believe if we don't ask? If you find honest questions regarding spiritual matters to be so offensive, why don't you take a break from the discussion for a while? It might help you get back on an even keel. [​IMG]
     

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