The mystery of the Jews relationship with God

So, the gentiles are grafted into the same root as the Jews. They become part of the same vine. They are not a "separate" vine, but part of the same vine (i.e. the children of promise).

And I notice you didn't address the passage from Eph. which clearly states that the Jews and the gentiles have become one new man in Christ because of His work on the cross, and that they will now be presented to God as one body.

I don't see any mention of a separate future for the Jews in that passage.

peace to youraying:

 

Romans 11:26 ...."and thus all Israel will be saved;..."

Clearly, Paul is referring to Gentiles that have been "grafted in" and are therefore considered part of "Israel" (i.e. children of the promise), for he says once the fullness of the gentiles has occurred "...and thus all Israel will be saved;".....

.....meaning both the "Israel" from among the Jews and the "Israel" from among the gentiles....the "remnant", the "elect", the "children of the promise."

That is consistent with Paul's teaching in Eph. that Christ's work on the cross has made both groups into one new man, reconciled to God by the power of Holy Spirit. There is neither Jew nor Gentile anymore. There are only those that are saved and those that are lost from among both groups.

peace to youraying:

 

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

And your Scriptural basis for this is?

And your Scriptural basis for this is?

 

I believe I made the following post:

The definition of the Church as presented in The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 is as follows [Section VI]:

“The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

All the redeemed of all ages would predate Israel.

:

 

yea and your interpretation of that has been corrected multiple times. But that wasn't the one I was thinking of.

 

That statement does not lend itself to various shades of interpretation so you are incorrect. It has not been corrected even one time since it is true, taken, as Ryrie would say at "face value".

I am curious how this ever passed given that so many Southern Baptists have embraced the erroneous teachings of Scofield/Darby or should I say Darby/Scofield.

Also I think I said that the Church began when the first person was redeemed and I did not even need the SBC definition of the Church to convince me of that. Furthermore, that first person redeemed was not Jacob/Israel. It was not even Abraham though he is referred to as the father of the faithful and friend of God.

 

stilllearning

You need to read an exposition of Revelation written by someone other than a dispensationalist. The first thing you must understand about Revelation is that it was written to the 1st Century Church but as does all Scripture it has a message for the Church since then.

Revelation 11:11-13 says nothing about the Jews turning to God and recognizing Jesus Christ as the Messiah. God saves people one at a time. Those Jews who will be saved will be saved one at a time just like the Gentiles.

Of course I believe the remainder of your explanation is faulty!

 

The context of Romans 11 does not support your interpretation.

The context of Romans, especially Romans 11, is dealing with salvation and the relationship that exists between Jew and Gentile in the plan of salvation that has consumated in Jesus Christ.

The phrase "the fullness of the Gentiles" must be understood in its context.

Romans 11:11 "I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. (12) "Now if their transgression be riches for the world and their failure be riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment by!"

Paul says in Romans 11:25 "For I do not want you , brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; (26) and thus all Israel will be saved;..."

Clearly, the context is dealing with salvation going to the Gentiles. Therefore, the phrase "the fulness of the Gentiles" must be dealing with the fulness of the Gentiles in relation to salvation. After that fulness of salvation has occurred, the hardening will be lifted and many Jews will come to salvation in Jesus Christ... becoming part of His church, His bride, His body, His one new man....

Again, I notice you didn't address the clear teaching in Eph. that Jew and Gentile have been reconciled into one new man by Christ's work on the cross and that both shall be presented to the Father in one body by the power of Holy Spirit.

peace to youraying:

 

In the church economy which has nothing to do with the Israel economy. You say the Ephesians passage supports your position I say it does not. I say you have taken Romans 11 completely out of its context as it is speaking of the breaking away of Israel and that they are blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles. Or in other words the church as the church is now the conduit that God uses to reveal Himself where as Israel was. When God takes the church out of the way then Israel will once again be the conduit.

 

As I said earlier: The economy of the nation Israel was permanently ended with the advent of Jesus Christ. They had fulfilled their part in God's purpose of Salvation.

God will not take the Church out. Jesus christ will return, there will be a general resurrection of all the dead followed by the Great White Throne Judgment. It is that simple. No elaborate fictional eschatology based on a faulty interpretation of Daniel!

 

Words have meaning in the context they are written.

You are ignoring the context of Romans 11 and of Eph. 2, which clearly states there is no long "Jew and Gentile", but "one new man" reconciled to God the Father through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross to be presented to the Father by the power of Holy Spirit.

To believe there is a separate future for Israel is to believe the peace that Jesus Christ brought to Jew and Gentile will be undone. That the "one new man" will once again be split into two different groups.

For that to be true, the work of Jesus on the cross must be nullified.

Eph. 2:18 "for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father".

peace to youraying:

 

That is ridiculous. You are overlooking the context when scripture says that Israel is currently blind until the fullness of the Gentiles. v.25 Then in verse 28 Paul makes a distinction between the church and Israel.

 

The passage doesn't say "Israel is currently blind". It says that a "partial hardening has happened to Israel."

If Paul makes a distinction between the church and Israel, he is contradicting himself in this same letter.

Romans 10:12 "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek."

You are making a distinction when scripture says there is none.

And you continue to refuse to engage the text of Eph. 2 which clearly states that Jew and Gentile have been reconciled and brought before God the Father as "one new man" in the power of Holy Spirit.

peace to youraying:

 

No I have already "engaged" it when I said Paul si speaking of the church. And that is in no way contradictory when we are speaking of two different economies.

 

You may be speaking of two different economies but Scripture doesn't. The Deliverer came our of Sion 2000 years ago!

 

OK, maybe I'm just misunderstanding you.

Let's look at Eph. and you can explain to me what you mean and how I am wrong by answering a few questions about the text.

Eph. 2:11 "Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision", which is performed in the flesh by human hands---

(12)remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world."

Paul identifies two groups. The first group is the Gentiles. The second group is the "commonwealth of Israel".

Do you agree that the text of Eph. 2:11-12 identifies these two separate groups? If the two groups are not the "Gentiles" and the "commonwealth of Israel", please show me why not?

Eph. 2:13 "But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ."

Those who "formerly were far off" must refer to Gentiles. Do you agree?

What brought them near is the blood of Christ. Do you agree? If not, then what?

What were they brought near to? It must mean they are brought near the commonwealth of Israel, along with the convenants of promise mentioned in v.12. Do you agree? If not, then what are they brought near to?

Eph. 2:14 "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the divinding wall,"

The context has already been established. The two groups are "Gentiles" and the "commonwealth of Israel". These two groups have been made one group. Do you agree? If not, please explain to me how it means something else?

Eph. 2:15 "by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, establishing peace,"

v. 15 tells us the "how" the two groups have been made one group. The Law of commandments has been "abolished". The Law of commandments must refer to the O.T. Laws that have been fulfilled in Christ, and both groups are saved by grace through faith (v.8)

The result of the abolishing of the law is that "peace" has been established between the two groups (the Gentiles and the commonwealth of Israel).

v.16 "and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity"

The two that are reconciled "in one body" to God are the Gentiles and the commonwealth of Israel. Do you agree? If not, why not?

The way the two groups (the Gentiles and the commonwealth of Israel) are reconciled is "through the cross". There, it is Christ's work on the cross that has reconciled the two groups, abolished the "Law of commandments" and brought peace. Do you agree? If not, why not?

v.18 "for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father"

So, now through Jesus Christ, both groups (the Gentiles and the commonwealth of Israel) have access to the Father by the Power of Holy Spirit.

Do you agree? If not, why not?

Now, let me see if I can accurately articulate your position. You believe Eph. 2 is speaking of the "economy of the church", which will be different in the 1000 year reign? In the 1000 year reign, the Gentiles and the Jews will once again be separate. Do I understand you correctly?

What I have said, therefore, is that if the Gentiles are separate from the commonwealth of Israel in the 1000 year reign, the work of Jesus Christ on the cross must be nullified, because these verses clearly say Jesus made peace between the Gentiles and the commonwealth of Israel and that both groups have become one new man, to be presented to God the Father as one body in the Spirit.

When exactly does the one new man get separated again into two different groups? And why?

Since Jesus has brought peace and reconcilation, why is that peace abolished to re-establish the Law of commandments which Christ "abolished" by His work on the cross?

Thank you in advance for your answers.

peace to youraying:

 

No one said it was any such thing. And it is not necessary to see it as such based on two economies. The "economy" is not about the law. Get passed it. At this point you have done nothing to address Romans 8:25-29. And the Ephesian passage has zero effect on the two economies. The economies are not about the law but about how God reveals himself to the lost world.