The Nation of Israel

I stand with Bro Tony. </font>[/QUOTE]Gershom,

It's been a while since I've seen you around. How's it going? Good to see you again.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Hey, Joseph. Things are going well. I've been busy at work. I pop in every once in a while to see what everybody's doing. Don't have too much to say, I guess. I enjoying reading after certain posters such as yourself, Bro Tony and a few others.

Thanks for asking.

 

The problem with your extreme viewpoint, LadyEagle, is that you basically argue that anyone who is not a premillennialist is adopting an anti-Semitic viewpoint, knowingly or not. I submit that your extremist language borders on baiting.

 

Lady Eagle, any comment about the information that I posted about Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

 

Nope. I refuse to get involved in these types of discussions anymore.

For the record:

I will make a note to any Jewish people who are lurking on this board who are concerned about the Bush Road Map and to any Israeli citizens who happen to lurk on this board: Many of the views expressed on this board are not in keeping with the mainstream American Evangelical Baptist thought.

The majority of nondenominational and other Mainstream Evangelical Groups (exluding the Presbyterians who have gone on record concerning the Israel/Palestine issue) and Mainstream Baptists - to include the leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention and all Independent Fundamental Baptists that I am aware of - do support the Nation of Israel and do not support the establishment of a Palestinian State.

http://www.baptiststandard.com/2003/5_12/pages/israel.html

http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-100-Thank-G-d-for-the-Evangelical-Christians.html

http://www.internationalwallofprayer.org/A-305-Why-Evangelical-Christians-Support-Israel.html

 

See what I mean? Millions of Godly Christians, their pastors, their elders and/or deacons, over countless past generations, are simply relegated to "preachers of hate" by you.

Ever hear of Dietrich Bonhoeffer?

"...In October 1944, Bonhoeffer was moved to the Gestapo prison in Berlin. In February 1945, he was taken to the Buchenwald concentration camp, and then to the Flossenbürg concentration camp, where he was hanged on April 9, 1945. Hans von Dohnanyi was executed soonthereafter.

...Protestant theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer stands out among the Christian leaders during the Nazi era, for he was one of the few to actively resist the racist actions of the Nazi regime.

...Bonhoeffer's defense of the Jews, however, was based on Christian supersessionism - the Christian belief that Christianity had superseded Judaism as the new chosen people of God.
SOURCE

Executed for his defense of the Jewish people...and you call him a "preacher of hate". How sad. </font>[/QUOTE]I call him neo-orthodox.

 

I am disturbed that my views are seen as anti-Semetic. That us purely a judgement call. I see nothing in the Word of God to evidence the fact that the State of Isreal established in 1948 is clearly the same people to whom God made His promises.

You declaration of me as anti-semetic for that view is unjust. </font>[/QUOTE]Right on! Once again you have proven that you are never wrong about anything! You are the greatest!

 

We are getting a lot of disinformation here based upon myth instead of fact.

Here are some facts:

In 1921, Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill severed nearly four-fifths of Palestine — some 35,000 square miles — to create a brand new Arab entity, Transjordan. As a consolation prize for the Hejaz and Arabia (which are both now Saudi Arabia) going to the Saud family, Churchill rewarded Sherif Hussein's son Abdullah for his contribution to the war against Turkey by installing him as Transjordan's emir.

The British went further and placed restrictions on Jewish land purchases in what remained of Palestine, contradicting the provision of the Mandate (Article 6) stating that “the Administration of Palestine...shall encourage, in cooperation with the Jewish Agency...close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not acquired for public purposes.” By 1949, the British had allotted 87,500 acres of the 187,500 acres of cultivable land to Arabs and only 4,250 acres to Jews.2

Ultimately, the British admitted the argument about the absorptive capacity of the country was specious. The Peel Commission said: “The heavy immigration in the years 1933-36 would seem to show that the Jews have been able to enlarge the absorptive capacity of the country for Jews.”

web page--Please click here for Jewish Virtual Library Myths and Facts Online: The Mandatory Period

 

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was probably the foremost Christian in the world who defended the Jews in Germany. You refuse to even consider information that I posted about him. And then you call others "anti-Semitic". Where are you coming from on this?

 

I am disturbed that my views are seen as anti-Semetic. That us purely a judgement call. I see nothing in the Word of God to evidence the fact that the State of Isreal established in 1948 is clearly the same people to whom God made His promises.

You declaration of me as anti-semetic for that view is unjust. </font>[/QUOTE]Right on! Once again you have proven that you are never wrong about anything! You are the greatest! </font>[/QUOTE]Can anyone explain this post to me? </font>[/QUOTE]Sure, I can. It's the ranting of an irrational mind.

 

Sorry, PA Jim, not falling into the snare you believe you have set, that's what. Because as soon as I say he was a great Christian who defended the Jews (which he was), you will turn around and say he believed in replacement theology.

Sorry, PA Jim, you have to wake up PRITTY early to catch the worm, LOL.

 

That was no trap. I stated it beforehand. The fact that it entirely contradicts your "anyone who is not a dispensationalist is anti-Semitic" rantings doesn't seem to bother you, though. Your position goes entirely against all of church history, contrmporary evidence, and cannot be Biblically supported, even assuming that Dispensational doctrine is Biblical.

 

I'll take a further step here, and speculate that if you were to check into the theological background of various truly anti-Semitic sects, you'd find that more of them are splits off of radical Dispensational theology than covenant theology.

 

You quote neo-orthodox and ask that they be counted. It is not so much a theological issue as it is a political issue except that the replacement theology people try to make a theological issue out of it.

 

You are right, CMG. The discussion always turns theological and anti-premillenial anti-dispensationalism. Always. Some people just cannot stick to the Arab land grabbing historical facts or facts about terrorists or rewarding terrorists.

PA Jim: Oh well and not quite. I posted quite a few links above as far as main stream American Baptists go and the stand for the Nation of Israel as far as contemporary evidence.

And yes, my position can be Biblically supported.

Gen.12
[1] Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
[2] And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
[3] And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

God never retracted this, either.

As far as my position re: Israel. Even if I didn't believe the way I do theologically, it is illogical to reward terrorists with their own nation. Period. Not that it isn't being done elsewhere even as we speak and hasn't been done in the past.

 

To the uninformed here, would someone briefly explain replacement and covenant theologies? I can probably make a guess/inference from the terms but I don't know anything about them ( though I have heard of covenant theology, but not replacement).

 

Lady Eagle and CMG, your claims go against millennium of church history. it is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS to claim that post- or a-millennial thought results from a political argument that started in 1948. Those doctrines, right or wrong, were developed many, many centuries ago.

How can you ignore that?

 

FTR, covenant theology holds that the Church, as of the time of the Resurrection, inherited the role of OT Israel as the people of God.

Uninformed folks will claim that it is some form of anti-Semitism; in fact, it is the position of many Godly Christians. The Pilgrims and Puritans held to it. Jonathan Edwards held to it.

RC Sproul holds to it. Many Presbyterians, both liberal and conservative hold to it. Reformed Baptists hold to it. Lutherans hold to it. Those of the various Reformed traditions and denominations hold to it.

Earlier on I posted a LINK to information about Dietrich Bohhoeffer, a German theologian who was executed for his defense of the Jews, who held to it. In fact, the link was to the website of The Jewish Virtual Library, a Division of the American-Israeli Cooperation Enterprise". But, I guess it's easier or more fun to call names and make accusations than to listen, or read, or consider another point of view.