The natural man

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Forest, Mar 14, 2012.

  1. Forest

    Forest
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    We are all born into this world as natural beings, void of the Spirit. How does the natural man get saved eternally? Does the natural man seek to serve God? Can the natural man accept Jesus as his savour?
     
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Jesus said “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” If anyone wants to see anything spiritual, and that include Heaven above, they MUST be born again.


    Regarding your question "Can the natural man accept Jesus as his savour?".

    no, not according to my scriptural understanding.
     
    #2 Earth Wind and Fire, Mar 14, 2012
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  3. Forest

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    I was just fishing for someone to tell me that the natural man has the desire to serve God and then I would give him scripture to prove his theory wrong. Thats probably not a tactical way of starting a thread.
     
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    No, no, no......fishing is akin to trolling & you could get whacked for that brother. Perhaps you should rephrase & even repost.

    say your mea culpa & move on! :thumbs:
     
  5. convicted1

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    I agree with this WHOLEHEARTEDLY!! :thumbs:


    The natural will not get saved eternally until Jesus returns, it then is changed from a natural to spiritual body, joins Jesus in the Cloud and reunites with the soul, and then taken home.


    Nope.


    It could if Jesus was dealing with it. However, Jesus only communicates with our soul/inner man. When we are saved, He only saves the soul. The Holy Spirit indwells our inner man/soul, and not in our flesh. Our flesh will never be saved here on this earth. Only when Jesus returns, will it be changed from natural to spiritual. So the natural can not accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour because Jesus never draws it.
     
  6. convicted1

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    Listen, in regards to the natural man, I think you are spot on. The natural man will never have a desire to serve Him because God never draws it. He only draws the soul/inner man of mankind.
     
  7. convicted1

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  8. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    1 Peter 1:23
    For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    The whole purpose of the natural man is that we can't trust it, and we should turn away from it. We should be lead by Jesus word which is Spirit and life; for the natural man leads to death.

    Our will is to do evil, we must say not my will but your will be done. We forsake our own will and take His.

    "Usually, when the text is taken, the divisions are: First, that man has a will. Secondly, that he is entirely free. Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved. Now, we shall have no such divisions; but we will endeavour to take a more calm look at the text; and not, because there happen to be the words "will," or "will not" in it, run away with the conclusion that it teaches the doctrine of free-will. It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense. Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing. "

    C.H. Spurgeon

    Luke 22:42
    “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

    John 6:38
    For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

    Romans 7:22
    For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

    Ephesians 3:16
    I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

    20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
     
    #8 psalms109:31, Mar 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2012
  9. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  10. jonathan.borland

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    Man can receive Jesus as his Savior if God has enlightened him by his saving grace.
     
  11. convicted1

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    But remember, this thread is in regards to the natural/fleshly man. The inner man/soul can receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour by Him calling them, but the outer/natural man, is never drawn in this process. That's why we have the warfare that Apostle Paul referred to.
     
  12. jonathan.borland

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    Okay. But it doesn't matter salvifically since God's grace has appeared to or enlightened every man, which has not just flesh but also spirit.
     
  13. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    "IN CHRIST JESUS THERE IS LIFE, for he says, “ye will not come me that ye may have life.”There is no life in God the Father for a sinner; there is no life in God the Spirit for a sinner apart from Jesus. The life of a sinner is in Christ. If you take the Father apart, though he loves his elect, and decrees that they shall live, yet life is only in his Son. If you take God the Spirit apart from Jesus Christ, though it is the Spirit that gives us spiritual life, yet it is life in Christ,life in the Son. We dare not, and cannot apply in the first place, either to God the Father, or to God the Holy Ghost for spiritual life. The first thing we are led to do when God brings us out of Egypt is to eat the Passover—the very first thing. The first means whereby we get life is by feeding upon the flesh and blood of the Son of God; living in him, trusting on him, believing in his grace and power..."

    C. H. Spurgeon.

    We are separated from the Spirit of God because of Sin. We must be given a new heart, one that is not separated from God.

    There is no life within us, there is only life in Christ.

    John 7:39
    By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

    Acts 19
    Paul in Ephesus
    1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[Or after] you believed?”

    They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

    3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

    “John’s baptism,” they replied.

    4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[Or other languages] and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.



    The spirit of man is a mystery to me, but life eternally with God is only in Christ. A marriage between our soul and His Holy Spirit.



    Matthew 10:28
    Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    1 Peter 1:
    8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.


    "The basis of this confession lies in the union of every believer with Christ Jesus. We are dead with him, because we are one with him. We are risen with him, because we are one with him. Every believer is, in the purpose of divine grace, identified with Jesus. He was given to the Lord Jesus from before the foundation of the world, and placed under his covenant headship. The Lord Jesus suffered for the believer as his substitute, and virtually each saved one died in Christ, who represented him. The believer rose in Christ by virtue of the eternal union which exists between the saint and his Savior. Therefore the believer continues to live, for the Lord has said, "Because I live, ye shall live also." Our destiny is identified with that of our covenant Head. His life is the model of our experience: he makes us to be conformed to his image now, and we shall be like him when we shall see him as he is. O my hearer, if you are not in Christ you have nothing. Out of Christ you are in the wilderness: with him you are in a paradise. In Christ believers possess all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, and grace, and power, and love. All things are yours, if you are Christ's. From our union to Christ follows our sanctification: we cannot follow after sin, for Christ does not follow after it. He died unto sin once, and we are henceforth dead to it. He is risen by the glory of the Father, and we are risen with him into righteousness, and acceptance, and joy."

    C. H. Spurgeon
     
    #13 psalms109:31, Mar 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2012
  14. HankD

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    John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.​

    You can't know how, you can only perceive that it has happened to someone.

    HankD
     
  15. Forest

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    You are so much off base with how you interpret the scriptures than the way I do that I am having a difficult time trying to understand your logic. Do you think that God draws all mankind? Is this an irrisistable drawing? It is my belief that the soul of the natural man will not respond to anything spiritual until it has been quickened to a spiritual life. 1 Cor 2:14.
     
  16. Forest

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    Can you tell me how a natural man "can make himself willing to come to Christ" in consideration of 1 Cor 2"14?
     
  17. Forest

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    Give me scripture on that thought so I can make a better response to your statement.
     
  18. Forest

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    We don't have that warfare until we, as natural men, are quickened to a spiritual life, Eph 2:5.
     
  19. psalms109:31

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    "What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they,—"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself; for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

    "First, NEGATIVELY; and here my first observation is that any other way of preaching the gospel-warrant is absurd. If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners. "Nay," saith one, "but we mean that a man must have some good desires towards Christ before he has any warrant to believe in Jesus." Friend, do you not know what all good desires have some degree of holiness in them? But if a sinner hath any degree of true holiness in him it must be the work of the Spirit, for true holiness never exists in the carnal mind, therefore, that man is already renewed, and therefore saved. Are we to go running up and down the world, proclaiming life to the living, casting bread to those who are fed already, and holding up Christ on the pole of the gospel to those who are already healed? My brethren, where is our inducement to labour where our efforts are so little needed? If I am to preach Christ to those who have no goodness, who have nothing in them that qualifies them for mercy, then I feel I have a gospel so divine that I would proclaim it with my last breath, crying aloud, that "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—sinners as sinners, not as penitent sinners or as awakened sinners, but sinners as sinners, sinners "of whom I am chief."

    C.H. Spurgeon

    It all depends how you see "all" if you think all is limited to what and how men sees "all" then we have no more to discuss. Me and you can never see scripture the same if we see "all" differently.

    The natural man will never choose Jesus not our will, having free will is ridiculous.

    When I quite smoking it was a war with my will and my natural man, if you never fought anything that the will and natural man wants to do you will never understand what I am talking about.

    The inner most being the free agency within our soul has been placed before it life and death before this inner being through the message of Christ.

    To trust in Jesus (not my will), or I will perish. God does not just place life before us, but life and death so choose Jesus and live.

    A free agency we can believe in, but a free will is ridiculous, a fable story.

    It is not my choice or my will that those who trust in Jesus be saved, but that is the will of God through Jesus Christ. If it was my choice then I can make my own way. I can't the word of God say's only those who trust in Jesus will be saved.

    This is what the scripture says we are born again through.

    1 Peter 1:23
    For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
     
    #19 psalms109:31, Mar 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2012
  20. convicted1

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    How is my interpretation of the natural man different than yours? God never draws the natural man, only the soul of a man.




    Yes. When Jesus stated in John 12:32, He said if He be lifted up, He will draw all men unto Himself. However, not all will come.



    No. I can find nothing that supports the "I" in the TULIP in His Word.




    There is no spiritual life outside of Jesus Christ. If one has to be made alive to hear and respond, and with this, they are then placed in Christ, that has life outside of Jesus. This is not supported in the scriptures.
     

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