The nature of Quickening

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Jan 8, 2014.

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  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    Paul uses an Aorist tense (quickened) and a Perfect tense (saved) verbs to describe regeneration. Both are found in the passive voices which demands that man is the object of the action rather than participating in the action.

    The completed action verbs demand it is a PAST tense completed punctillar action that stands complete and is not progressive or incompleted action. We are not "being quickened."

    Third, this is an action that counters a past condition "were dead in sins" and this past condition is further explained by Paul in this very same epistle in these words:

    Eph. 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    They are "dead IN RESPECT TO sins". The Greek text does not use any preposition ("in") in Ephesians 2:1,5. Instead, it only uses a definite noun that is found in the dative case (within the five case system) and because of the overall context of scripture must be interpreted as a Dative of Reference/Respect. God says in Isaiah 59:1 that sin separates people from God and this separation is precisely what Paul continues to describe the unregenerated state in Ephesians 4:18 "alienated from the life of God" which means they are "dead" due to "darkened" and "blindness" and "ignorance" which are all descriptives of the condition of sin (Jn. 3:19-20).

    Quickening is the REVERSAL of this "dead" or being "alienated from the life of God" due to sin. Sin is not described as deeds or actions in Ephesians 4:18 but as a CONDITION or STATE of heart. The heart is the unseen internal man and the SEAT of desire, thoughts and volition. In regard to the mind, the condition is "darkened" and in "ignorance." In regard to the heart or seat of desires, the heart is in "blindness" (lit. hardened, caloused).

    Hence, the condition that quickening reverses is a "darkened....ignorance....blinded" state of the heart. Hence, Quickening must be inclusive of LIGHT, KNOWLEGE and SENSIBILITY as the very inherent characteristis of quickening, regeneration or new birth.

    This is why Jesus said that eternal life "IS" REVELATION of the true God and HIs Son Jesus Christ - Jn. 17:3. This is why Jesus told Peter that the substance of his confession of faith was not obtained from "flesh and blood" but was REVEALED to Him by the Father. This is why Paul told the Corinthians that salvation is by direct revelation as a creative act of God (2 Cor. 4:6). This is why Paul told the Thessalonians the gospel must not come merely in word only but "in power and in the Spirit and in much assurance."

    Human instruments can only bring the gospel TO sinners but God alone can REVEAL it WITHIN sinners. It is this REVELATION within that is regeneration/quickening/new birth. This act of God is limited to only "as many as the Father has given me" - Jn. 17:2-3 and that is precisely why "all that the Father giveth me shall come to me" as the very substance of faith is the content of this direct revelation in the heart by a creative act of God:

    2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    Thus the darkened, ignorant, blinded condition of the depraved heart is transformed by the "command" of God using the gospel that has been brought TO the sinner but within whom only God uses it to speak into existence a new heart and new spirit creating light where darkness, ignorance and hardness had been.

    This creative work of God is according to particular redemption as:

    26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
    27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
    28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
    29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
    31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


    Arminians cannot say this because they beleive ALL who are under the sound of the gospel are EQUALLY called. Here "called' means "quickened" or born again by the creative word of God as it does in Romans 8:29.
     
  2. JamesL

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    That's an awfully tall soap box you climbed on, just to preach to only two or three people who actually understand what you wrote

    lol

    1Cor 14:19 - I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue
     
  3. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    There are many more on this forum that understand what I said than you realize. Don't measure their abilities by your lack of ability. Don't merely read what I said, study it carefully and study requires more work on your part.
     
  4. Skandelon

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    Once again you pluck passages from their context to suggest that human responsibility doesn't exist. You are interpreting this passage as if (1) the ones blind had nothing to do with BECOMING as such (but were born totally disabled) and (2) the ones blind have nothing to do with removing the blindness. But let's read the entire context of this passage and I'll highlight every part that speaks of HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY.

    17 Therefore, I say this and testify in the Lord: You should no longer walk as the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their thoughts. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them and because of the hardness of their hearts. 19 They became callous and gave themselves over to promiscuity for the practice of every kind of impurity with a desire for more and more. 20 But that is not how you learned about the Messiah, 21 assuming you heard Him and were taught by Him, because the truth is in Jesus: 22 you took off your former way of life, the old man that is corrupted by deceitful desires; 23 you are being renewed in the spirit of your minds; 24 you put on the new man, the one created according to God's [likeness] in righteousness and purity of the truth. 25 Since you put away lying, Speak the truth, each one to his neighbor, because we are members of one another. 26 Be angry and do not sin. Don't let the sun go down on your anger, 27 and don't give the Devil an opportunity. 28 The thief must no longer steal. Instead, he must do honest work with his own hands, so that he has something to share with anyone in need. 29 No rotten talk should come from your mouth, but only what is good for the building up of someone in need, in order to give grace to those who hear. 30 And don't grieve God's Holy Spirit, who sealed you for the day of redemption. 31 All bitterness, anger and wrath, insult and slander must be removed from you, along with all wickedness. 32 And be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving one another, just as God also forgave you in Christ.
     
  5. JamesL

    JamesL
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    But you still didn't demonstrate the "nature" of quickening, or regeneration.

    Let's liken regeneration to an apple.

    You told us what you think an apple looks like, how an apple tree is planted, what kind of nutrients should be in the ground, who might plant the tree, the season they grow in, how it might taste, and a whole lot of things "about" it.

    But you didn't offer anything related to the "nature" of the apple. What "is" an apple? The simple answer: a piece of fruit.

    So, regarding regeneration, what IS it? that, after all, was your own question as a title for the thread

    And trying to answer the hows and whys is "fruit"less if you don't first settle the what.
     
  6. Skandelon

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    Can you explain how this fits with Calvinism's teaching regarding unconditional election? I thought men were called based on NO CONDITION whatsoever, yet this passage lists foolish, unwise according to the flesh, the weak, not the mighty, not the noble...sounds like a list of conditions.
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    First, you need to recognize the CONTRAST he is making between them as SAVED persons and THE LOST. Verses 17-19 refers to the LOST man.

    17 Therefore, I say this and testify in the Lord: You should no longer walk as the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their thoughts. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them and because of the hardness of their hearts. 19 They became callous and gave themselves over to promiscuity for the practice of every kind of impurity with a desire for more and more.




    Verses 20-32 refers to the SAVED man. His argument is that a Saved man has been given a new man and the Holy Spirit and so they should not "walk" like a lost man who has not been given these things and is in a state of total inability. You have proven nothing.
     
  8. Van

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    The endless nonsense continues unabated. Does "saved" mean regenerated? Nope. But the Calvinist redefines, for this fiction, that saved means regeneration. Folks, saved means... saved, and regeneration means... born anew.

    Pay no attention to the Calvinist's appear to grammar as if bogus ideas gain validity if draped in grammar garments.

    To be made alive does not mean to be made enlightened. This is just another attempt to redefine the meaning of words to pour Calvinism into the text.

    John 17:3 equates "eternal life" with "knowing God." Thus, when God places us spiritually in Christ, we are made alive together with Christ, no one is quickened, born anew, regenerated, made alive outside of Christ.

    We are saved by grace through faith. Thus we have faith before we are saved. And to be saved is to be placed spiritually in Christ. Thus faith before regeneration, and not the other (Calvinist) way around.

    Bottom line, the OP presents a bogus nonsensical view that "regeneration" refers to the Calvinist doctrine of "Irresistible Grace."

    There is nothing mystical or hidden in 2 Corinthians 4:6, Jesus is the light of the world (all of fallen mankind). Jesus revealed himself to Paul, recall the road to Damascus.

    The gospel is veiled to some, i.e. the first soil of Matthew 13, but not to all. That is why Christ spoke sometimes in parables, to control the timing of His revelation. Otherwise those lost folks would have heard, understood, and been healed.

    Total Spiritual Inability is yet another fiction, not found in scripture, but poured in by redefining words, taking things out of context, and adding things to the text to alter its meaning.

    Called does not mean quickened. It never ends, nothing is sacred to the revisers of scripture.
     
  9. Skandelon

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    The question is how does one go from being able to see to blinded and then from blinded to being saved. You seem to think the individual had nothing to do with becoming blind (as if they were born like that due to Adam) which the text doesn't support, and that they have as little to do with becoming the NEW MAN, which the text likewise doesn't support.

    It says clearly, "you took off your former way of life, the old man that is corrupted by deceitful desires; 23 you are being renewed in the spirit of your minds; 24 you put on the new man"....

    That is NOT a denial of human responsibility. It is an affirmation of it. If he were a Calvinist he would have stated, "God took off your former way of life...and God put on the new man irresistibly..." But that is NOT what the author states.​
     
  10. Jacob_Elliott

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    Thanks Van that was very uplifting. Next time could you please refrain from being so rude and maybe a little more loving? There is enough hate in this forum already. God bless! :1_grouphug:
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    Let me state it in simple clear terms and later I will defend it, ok?

    Simply put quickening is being made alive by being brought into spiritual union with God. It is the reversal of those characteristics spelled out in Ephesians 4:17-19.

    1. The object of quickening is the spirit - Jn. 3:6
    2. The nature of quickening is Revelatory
    a. Life is light - Jn. 1:4
    b. Life is the light of knowledge - Jn. 17:3
    3. The means of quickening is by Divine fiat/command - 2 Cor. 4:6/Jm 1:17; 1
    Thes. 1:5
    4. The source is God - Mt. 16:17; Gal. 1:15-16; 2 Cor. 4:6
    5. The nature of quickening is transformative
    1. Transformation of the heart and spirit - Ezek. 36:26; Deut. 29:4
    2. Transforms the "hardened" condition of the heart - Eph. 5:18 "blindness" (lit. hardness) or resistant condition (Rom. 8:7) to a submissive condition (2 Cor. 3:3.

    The gospel is brought TO sinners by external means (Rom. 10:14-16) but the gospel is wrought WITHIN sinners by divine fiat (2 Cor. 4:6; 1 Thes. 1:5) as it becomes the creative command of God.
     
  12. convicted1

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    That is correct, they are not chosen on the basis of foreseen good or evil (Rom. 9:11). However, it is God's arbritary purpose to choose from among men that which even according to men's standard of good and evil, those who would seem the most unlikely while sovereignly passing over those whom men would believe should be the more likely and deserving.
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    It says no such thing. Their former lost state was that of blindness not sight (vv. 17-19).


    It says no such thing. He is talking about their current saved state in verses 20-32 between the old and new man. He never suggests or infers that they had anything to do with transition of the blind state of their lost condition to the sight of their saved condition. Indeed, they were "saved" which necessarily demands they were PASSIVE rather than active in coming out of darkness into light.


    How many times do I have to explain this to you????? They not only existed and acted as one human nature in the person of one man but Adam was the best possible REPRESENTATIVE man - Rom. 5:12-19.

    Yes, they were born "dead" in Adam as no child comes into the world spiritually alive.

    Yes, They were born in the state of "blindness" as no child comes into the world seeing spiritual truth.

    Yes, They were born in the state of "ignorance" as no child comes into the world with saving knowledge.

    So why? Because all sinned in Adam. Because they existed as one indivisible human nature which acted in unison as one man.

    He is addressing them IN THEIR SAVED STATE in connection with the spiritual warefare between the new and old man. He is not referring to their transition from the kingdom of darkness to light.

    As saints, we are commanded to put on and to put off but that is not possible by sheer will power (Rom. 7:18) but only by acknowledging TOTAL INABILITY in ourselves (Rom. 7:24)and submission to the Spirit.
     
  15. Skandelon

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    I'm not seeing how that answers my question. The verse says he chose the weak, yet your dogma teaches that he chooses them based on no condition. Isn't being 'weak' a condition?
     
  16. Skandelon

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    I do not see how this relates to my statement? You seem to be replying to something else?

    Again, what are you talking about. I never said 'it is saying.' I presented a question to illustrate our point of contention and your response is confounding.

    Yeah, 'you put on the new man' isn't clear enough, I suppose? Well, it isn't clear enough to someone hard bent on denying human responsibility at every turn.

    And how many times do I have to explain that your federal headship explanation, while accurate, doesn't dismiss God choice to 'bind all men over to disobedience,' as a consequence of that fall. Unless you admit God just isn't sovereign over the consequences of the fall you have to admit this FACT.

    There is a difference in being ignorant of truth, but still able to see it when it comes and one who has 'become blinded or calloused' to the light over years of rebellion. See Acts 28:21-28 again.

    Correct. "How can they believe in him whom they have not heard?" This question strongly suggests that once they do hear of him they may believe. You assume otherwise without biblical merit for such a belief.

    Bro! It says 'you took off the old man' and 'you put on the new man.' That is clearly talking about moving from being in the flesh to being in the spirit.
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    Romans 9:11 deals with the CAUSE for election and denies any foreseen actions were determinate factors.

    1 Corinthians 1:26-29 deals with the CONSEQUENCES of election that confirms God's purpose of election is not consistent with the wisdom of men who would choose on the basis of apparent merit.

    Paul did not say that God chose NONE wise but "not many" or NONE mighty but rather the majority are exactly of that sort human wisdom would not have chosen. The purpose of God is to "confound" the wisdom of the world.

    However, as usual you ignore the dilemma I put before your face.
     
  18. Skandelon

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    But that isn't unconditional election. That is clearly based on a condition, regardless if 'many' or 'few,' were chosen for their being weak, not noble, etc...the fact conditions were listed for the choosing negates your conclusions.

    Your dilemma is that you believe and teach God chooses people based on no condition at all and this verse lists conditions for which God chose these people. "Humble yourself and you will be exalted." God chooses to give grace to the humble. That is a condition and it doesn't fit your dogma's system.

    Roman 9 is about God choosing one nation to be the lineage of the messiah and not the other yet they both came from the same seed. It is NOT about individual salvation.
     
  19. The Biblicist

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    Do you understand the difference between "condition" and "consequences"?

    Second, good and evil are only PERCEIVED differences in the eyes of men as God sees NONE GOOD and there is NONE THAT DOETH GOOD! Hence, these are simply human perceptions of good and evil. They don't exist from God's perspective as the fruits cannot be any better than the tree and he sees the tree as evil.

    Third, since it is a level playing field, it does not contradict that playing field to select the majority from among those whom THE WORLD PERCEIVES as good over bad because no such distinction actually exists from God's perspective.

    Fourth, Paul is asking the Corinthians to consider God's purpose of election from THEIR PERSPECTIVE not from God's perspective.

    Fifth, the only contradiction possible is YOUR OWN MAKING by confusing man's perspective with God's perspective.
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    Look at your next response and the light will come on!

    A lost man cannot "put on the new man" because the "new man" is a work of creation (Eph. 4:24). He is addressing saved persons who are in the Romans 7:14-25 struggle. Lost people cannot put on or put off. The old nature, indwelling sin, they are to put off characterizes the lost condition and that is why they should put it off and put on the new man. Ephesians 4:17-20 has NOTHING to do with a saved man and Ephesians 4:21-32 has NOTHING to do with a lost man. You are jerking scriptures out of context and confusing them.
     
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