In the thread where we were discussing the indispensable nature of the gospel, a point came up that justifies more debate. The point was that someone can respond to the light they have. I have offered a discussion on the difference between general and special revelation, that is God's part. What really could be hashed out more is man's part. So let me offer an analogy, and tell me what you think is the case. If a car cannot start on it's own because the battery does not have sufficient power to crank the car, then what role does the battery play in cranking the car if it gets a jump start? Now the possible range is the battery is completely void of power and offers no juice, all the way to the battery is almost there but needs a little spark to get the car going. It seems to me that apart from a jolt of power, ie the Word of God, the car is going no where. If we debate Calvinism, let's keep it surrounding the depravity of man, and try and stay away from limited atonement. This discussion is to debate the fact that man is either dead in his sin and therefore in need of revival from God or he is mortally wounded and in need only in need of assistance. One Scripture that I would offer for consideration is Eph. 2:8-9. It would seem to me that grace is the type of salvation, as opposed to merit and faith is the means of salvation, as opposed to works. In other words this is a salvation of grace that is not merited and it is through faith and not works that you are awarded salvation. Now if salvation is a gift that means that the grace as well as the faith are both apart of that gift. Therefore since this salvation is not of yourself the faith cannot be claimed as of yourself either. It is apparent that faith is a gift. Therefore I conclude that the battery is dead without hope of charging and the only way to crank the car is through replacing the battery.