Featured The New Birth is a Pre-Pentecost Reality

That is why the Bible states to us that we NOW are under a surer/better Covenant, as while the Lord remitted/held not the sins commited by his people against them due to the coming messiah, he actual gave to us now the Holy Spirit and new life in christ, as we are part of the church/Body of christ, the NT saints now are such...

The Holy spirit simple could not come to indwel ALL beleivers in jesus until Jesus had been born/died/raised again for our justification, and he came to seal and be with all of us...

Christ is us, the hope of Glory, that is what the OT did not have, but was looking towards!

 

On the surface that answer seems to bear some merit, however, the very language and verb tenses, of this passage speaks against your answer Darrell.

If the patriarchs had not been regenerated then they were dead in trespasses and sins, yet in the flesh and separated/alienated from God.

If what you say is true then it would seem that there is a different definition of saving faith for the OT saints resulting in a "salvation" without regeneration.


HankD

 

The prophets did:

Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Again, why did Jesus expect Nicodemus a master in Israel to know of the new birth?

Some (well at least one) says that it was a future event however the grammar and syntax of John 3 do not IMO give credence to that concept.


HankD

 

The OT prophets knew of his coming, of Him bringing to earth the promised new covenant, but they did not have all of it "nailed down", as they did have full understanding of all the coming events and timing of them...

And jesus remarks to him would be a gentle rebuke to how could he fail to see that in him was the promise of the messiah who was to come, and to be the one to bring in the new covenant for isreal foretold by OT prophets?

 

we are not denying that God saved those in the Old testament, just that he had decided to remit, not hold their sins against them, but they were not exactly indwelt/filled with the Holy Spirit as we are now under the New covenant relationship with God...

Not every person saved by God in the scriptures under the Old Way was said to possess the Spirit, as that seemed reserved for Prophets/priests/Kings/Judges, those with special duties for the lord to perform...

And again, Paul in romans state it so well that while the law is perfect, the people in OT times were merely flesh, and could not keep the law, so God in the new covenant would write law on their hearts, and have Christ in us, in the Person of the Holy Spirit Himself!

And it seems many reformed/calvinists held this view that while the OT believers were 'saved/regenerated", did NOT experience Holy Spirit same fashion we do today...

 

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Christ is not speaking of a future event.

"born of the Spirit" is a perfect participle structure which indicates a condition which has occurred in the past with abiding results.

Young's Literal:
John 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.

It does not say: every one who shall be born of the Spirit.

HankD

 

It's not difficult friend...Adam died spiritually and this was through loss of intimate relationship with God.

That has already been established. As I said, until you address what has been said we will simply go in circles.

Your entire premise, like the OP...is based on assumption that is in error.

You paint the natural man as though there is no possibility of righteousness with him, but let me introduce you to a man who was not regenerate, who was not Baptized with the Holy Spirit...that was held in esteem by the Lord:


Acts 10

King James Version (KJV)

10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.


21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?

22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.


34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.



This is Cornelius before being Born Again.

Now let's look at his salvation experience:


44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Cornelius was an Old Testament Saint from among the Gentiles.

He was capable, just the other Gentiles Paul spoke about (under the Law):


Romans 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


The natural man is not totally void of the capacity for righteous works or for having fear of God. That does not mean, however...they are born again.

Agreed.

No, these are they that rebel against God.

Not all Gentiles could be described like this, this is simply a general description of those that are lawless.

So we correct this and say "This is man before regeneration."

You are seeing regeneration in a very limited light, as though those that are regenerated never sin, combined with the equally erroneous view that those that are unregenerate cannot accomplish righteous works.

This neglects the fact that salvation is a process accomplished through God's effort alone, in which our standing before God, even being regenerate, does not dismiss the flesh we remain in, whereby when we do sin again, and we will, the determination of God yet stands.

What I mean by that is that our righteousness which we accomplish in the flesh is not a result of something that is good in us, because we are righteous and holy and accomplish those things, but is due to first, God's declaration of the imputation of righteousness on our part (possible through Christ's Work), secondly, God's conforming us to the image of His Son, and probably the most important (practically speaking)...the indwelling of God. Love, Joy, Peace, et cetera, is fruit of...the Spirit.

Not us.

Again, God said "I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and keep my judgments." Now using the same reasoning you and others use to try to prove regeneration prior to Pentecost, we can say that if God had not placed His Spirit within Israel that they might walk in His statutes and keep His judgments, but that this was a promise for a future time, then it is settled...they did not have the indwelling that He promised at that time.

Right?

And that is the problem with those that impose the New Birth into the Old Testament Economies...they diminish the true magnitude of what God has done through Christ.

"Nothing more...nothing less."

The fact is that the Work of Christ is an awesome effort of redemption which has been foretold yet only revealed in these times. I have shown you numerous Scriptures which show this was a mystery, truth hidden from man and revealed specifically through the Holy Spirit in His capacity as Comforter, which Christ Himself distinguished as not being with, but in.

I am not surprised you refuse to respond to the Word presented.

This is true of Adam only, for all who descend from him were never in union with God, but are born without life.

We don't ascribe spiritual status to something that is not present.


Continued...

 

It's funny you should demand this when you have addressed so little in the posts I have given in response to your view.


God bless.

 

And this is the key to understanding the Old Testament ministry of the Spirit of God: it was He that enabled men to perform that which corresponds to righteousness, whether that righteousness was for the purpose of Prophet, Priest, King, or worshipper.

Here is another distinction Christ makes between the economies of the Old and the New:


John 4:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.


We know the Lord Himself kept the Law, so we do not suppose here He is saying that the worship offered according to the Law was faulty, but that there was coming a change which would not just affect the Samaritans, but the Jews as well.

That change was the coming of the New Covenant, through which the promises of God would be fulfilled, and the single-most important aspect of the New Covenant in regards to man's relationship with God is the Spirit of Promise. It is the indwelling on an eternal basis that differed from the relationships men held with God prior to that day. Israel was certainly in relationship with God through the Covenant of Law, but, He promised a relationship through Covenant that would be greater and contain a more complete nature than that of the Covenant of Law.

Even those outside of the Law, that is, Gentiles...could be in relationship with God by being obedient to the three witnesses of God Paul mentions: internal witness, Creation itself, and the Word of God.



Romans 1:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:



Romans 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Romans 3

King James Version (KJV)

31What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.



God has from the beginning revealed Himself to man through these three primary ways, and those found in obedience are regarded by God, and those who rebel are not.

No-one is arguing anything different.

In view is when this began according to New Covenant promise and standard.

If we suppose that natural man is completely ignored by God, then we might be able to embrace a view that man must be regenerate in order to do anything that hints of obedience to God. But the fact is clearly seen in the Gospels that the disciples preached, cast out demons, and healed, all under the power of the Holy Spirit, yet not one of them had a clue concerning Who Christ was in regards to Eternal Redemption.

And there is no evidence that Judas did not also preach, heal, and cast out demons.

The view that regeneration must precede any righteousness on a temporal level or that men cannot understand and believe without being regenerate can only lead to one conclusion: salvation can be lost. Because we see here...


2 Peter 2:19-21

King James Version (KJV)

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


...that there are men who willingly and knowingly reject the Ministry of the Comforter. They know the way of righteousness...and turn from it.

You really do not understand just how much conflict your view creates, and how much of that conflict that my view reconciles. All men, in this Age, are ministered to by the Holy Spirit in His Ministry as Comforter. That Ministry did not begin until after Christ ascended. And we see clearly that the Comforter ministers to...unbelievers:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Continued...

 

And I agree with Paul. Those are the only two conditions man can be in.

However, Paul is speaking Post-Pentecost and Demonstrating New Covenant standard.

Paul was not a minister of the Law...


2 Corinthians 3:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


You can see the link and see that in view is the New Covenant, not the New Testament (Word of God).

And they received not the promises.

Now let's go back to your proof-text:


Romans 9

King James Version (KJV)


3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


Again, the premise of the OP destroys the meaning of Paul's statement, trying to proof-text a view that is not even in the text. Ultimately the Seed is Christ, yet you have created a salvation by heritage theology.


Paul makes this clear:


Romans 9:8-9

King James Version (KJV)

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.


In view is not regeneration contrasted with natural or fleshly (as used in Chapter 8), but physical birth contrasting the efforts and will of man (Sarai and Abraham) and the efforts and will of God.

Wasn't the case concerning Cornelius.

Do you negate that which is recognized by God? Why do you think God brought about this event?

Let me introduce you to a third: a born again believer walking in the flesh.

You have created a false dichotomy of wholly evil natural man and wholly holy regenerate. It doesn't work like that, my friend. We all that are regenerate go through a growth process by which we are conformed to the image of Christ. As we strive to be obedient through the Spirit of God and gaining knowledge through Scripture which we can now understand...we learn to live holy, because He is Holy.

Our instantaneous transformation to sons of God does not preclude the flesh we remain in that yet remains unredeemed. Eternally speaking we are righteous, yet temporally and practically speaking the man that says he is sinless lies to himself.

Even Peter played the hypocrite in denying the Gentiles the same salvation the Jews received, in withdrawing from them when that certain came. Paul rebuked him to his face. And Peter had at this point probably accomplished more in evangelical efforts than probably any of us will accomplish in our entire lifetimes.

Because I do not view natural man as having become an animal.

Let me explain that:


James 3:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.


God, in His mercy, did not abandon man, though he fell. We did not become like the animals, but we are still the crowning creation of God, and the very reason why He created this universe to begin with. Keep in mind that this...


John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


...does not speak of only the Elect, nor of only the saved, but means what it says: God so loved the world.

God has made provision for every man and woman ever born or will ever born, and this because of His love for the world. We are not saved because we love God, or attain to a certain righteousness, but the exact opposite: we are saved because we have to be, because there is nothing within our nature that can remove the penalty for sin or bring us into a righteous standing with God. That is entirely imputed on every aspect within our salvation, and it begins before we are ministered to by the Spirit of God:


1 John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.


1 John 4:19

King James Version (KJV)

19 We love him, because he first loved us.



Now, you tell me you think Cornelius, a man of good report, was born again before the event described in Acts 10.


God bless.

 

So men can be born again without being Baptized with the Spirit?

The Baptism with the Spirit is not being empowered, but is the indwelling of God:


Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)


4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Here the disciples had not been Baptized with the Spirit. Why? Because the Lord made it clear that the Comforter could not come until He had returned to Heaven.


6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


The empowering of the Spirit of God, which is something He has performed from the beginning, follows the coming of the Comforter.

Even as Christ stated...


John 14:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


The ministry of the Spirit of God prior to Pentecost (which is the Day most will acknowledge the Comforter came) was external and was not, as the Lord states here...eternal (v.16).

He dwelt with them, but not in them (in the eternal sense).

Now, we expand on that to show the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, by which we know we are indwelt by God in His unity:


John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


God bless.

 

What is in view is redemption in it's progressive and final result.

Study Hebrews, this will clear it up.

As mentioned before, prior to the Cross and Pentecost we have a limited bestowal of God's intentions in regards to man's condition. In regards to atonement for sin...it did not take away sins. What that means is that, as I have said several times now, the people of faith under Old Testament Economies...died not having the penalty for their sin removed.

Only the Death of Christ could make atonement so that the sins of the sinner be satisfied, thus allowing reconciliation. Sin separates man from God, and until the penalty for sin had been offered, all that man had was the provision granted by God.

And under Old Testament standard, that was the death of animals as a temporary covering of sin, that men not be put to death for their own sin.

Under New Covenant standard the provision of atonement in completion is through faith in Christ.

You can try to rationalize the limited understanding of the Old Testament Saint as being satisfactory for reconciliation with God and the removal of the penalty of sin...but you're not going to support it from Scripture. The only means of attaining a righteous standard before God is to have the righteousness of the risen Christ imputed, by which it is His righteousness which stands without fault, allowing God to restore relationship which was hindered by the sin which separated us.

The limited understanding of the Old Testament Saint, perfectly exampled in Peter...was not the faith in Christ, and His death, which Christ Himself stated was the only means of attaining to eternal life, which He contrasts with the faith of the fathers in the Wilderness. As I said, "the fathers" very much include Moses, and Joshua, yet the Lord states "they are dead." The reason is that the provision was temporary, temporal, and physical. Manna sustained physical life, not spiritual. You have completely ignored the post dealing with this contrast concerning John 6, in which we see that it is at Christ's coming that the True Bread comes from Heaven (contrasted with manna in the Wilderness) and it is at that point that Eternal Life becomes available to man.

Not before.

It is necessary that a person believe on Christ in His capacity as Savior, and the disciples did not. As shown before...they were in opposition to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You are diminishing the Cross of Christ by equating the salvation attained to in the Old Testament (which placed the faithful "on hold" in regards to the payment of the penalty for their sin, though they were declared just) to the salvation wrought by Jesus Christ. You do not see this at this time, but I can assure you, the Work of Christ by far eclipses the benefits of relationship with God attained to by the Old Testament Saint.

On the contrary, there is nothing in Scripture to equate having faith with believing on the Name of the Risen Christ. Of course men had faith in the Old Testament, however, the focus of their faith is what is important.

That is why the Writer of Hebrews states we are not to lay again what is foundational, but to "go on unto perfection" which contrasts Old Testament Doctrine and practice with New:


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


If you consult Chapter 5, you will see that in view is a rebuke for ignorance of the foundational principles of Christ, which those rebuked were in need of being taught again, though for the time they should have been...teachers.

He exhorts to leave the basic principles of the Doctrine of Christ and go on unto completion, which is in fact the Gospel of Christ. The Old Testament did not reveal the Mystery of Christ, nor did Christ Himself in His Ministry. It was spoken of, but show me even one person who understood that Christ would die in the stead of the sinner.

I have asked you to do this several times now and it has been ignored.


God bless.