Featured The New Birth is a Pre-Pentecost Reality

You're not "granting" it.

You acknowledge the difference between a context of physical life/death and spiritual...and then ignore it and try to build a case for your view.

The proof-text is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. The Lord's point is that men do not cease to exist after physical death.

We don't use that to distinguish between the physically dead as to whether they had been regenerate or not.

You cannot ignore the Lord's Own statement...


John 6:48-53

King James Version (KJV)


48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


You are imposing the True Bread from Heaven into an Economy in which it does not exist.

"Eating of His flesh" and "drinking of His blood" is clearly spelled out as in relation...to His death on the Cross. Thus to eat of His flesh and drink of His blood is to place faith in His Work...which had not been accomplished at this point.

It can be stated like this: "Except ye believe that My Death is your salvation...ye have no life in you."

I agree. Those that are raised to life again to stand before the Great White Throne are called...dead.

However, the Lord states above "Your fathers are dead" and except one believe on Christ in relation to the Cross...they have no life in them.

You are pasting passages together without regard to context.

Consider Lazarus and the Rich Man: was it Heaven, in the presence of the Lord Lazarus is said to be?

No, Lazarus is said by the Lord to be in Abraham's Bosom, a Jewish euphemism for the place of the departed just in Sheol. Abraham refers the Rich Man's brothers, not to the Gospel, but to the Law and the Prophets, or in other words, the available Scripture, the Hebrew Scriptures. The method of enlightenment, by which his brothers could evade Hades and the torment the Rich Man was in was not the Comforter, as it is under New Covenant condition, but the available provision under an Economy which was still the Covenant of Law.

The "soul" is usually a general reference to man in his totality, though some see this as a reference to the immaterial aspect of man. The Lord does not reference the soul here...


Luke 24:39

King James Version (KJV)

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


Because many fail to properly place in context the use of "soul," this has led to the error of Soul Sleep and Annihilation.

When man dies physically, his spirit separates from his body, and while he can still be referenced as a "soul," it is the spirit that goes to the destination this person has chosen for him/herself while alive. This is true also of the Old Testament Saint, who because their sin had not been atoned for...did not come into the presence of God, but as the Old Testament establishes, went to Sheol at death.

Only after Christ had provided the means of Atonement for sin could it be possible for man to come into His presence.

We see that, also, in Hebrews:


Hebrews 9:6-12

King James Version (KJV)

6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


Notice "...the way into the Holiest of all was not yet made manifest."

What the Writer is saying is that while man could come into God's presence through a parable, a shadow, the way into the true presence of God was not available to man.


10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The "time of reformation" was the coming of Christ, that the way into the Holiest of All might be made manifest.


11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


By His Own Blood Christ entered into the Holiest of All, and it is through this, note carefully...Eternal Redemption was obtained for us.

This is, like most of the Book of Hebrews, contrasting what the Law accomplished and what Christ accomplished.

Like I said, the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David...all died not having their sin atoned for, and not having the provision promised by God in the New Covenant as realized.

The Writer makes this clear:


14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The transgressions of the Old Testament Saint had to be redeemed by...

...the Blood of Christ. He had to die before that could occur.

By His death, His Blood, His Offering (all referring to the same thing, His death on the Cross)...He provided the means of remission of sins in completion, whereas the Levitical Economy could not. He provided access to God at death. He atoned for the transgressions of the Old Testament Saint.

The Writer will reiterate this in the next Chapter:


Hebrews 10:15-20

King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


"The Holiest" in view here is Heaven itself. Entrance to the Holiest is through the Blood of Christ. Just as the Priest would go through the veil in the temporal Temple, the Incarnation is said here to be the veil which we go through to enter into God's presence.

All you need to understand is that eternal life was made possible through the Work of Christ. It was not available before then, thus Eternal Redemption was not ascribed to the Old Testament Saint. They were assured of redemption, but until Christ atoned for the sins they remained separated on an eternal level from God.

God is not the God of the Fathers that Christ states...are dead?

Keep it in context, my friend, or you will continue to blur the issue.


God bless.

 

Then I guess we are done.


God bless.

 

"Your Honor, permission to treat the witness as hostile?"



One last post to try to help you with a proper contextual approach.

You conclude that I have said men were justified by the Law, but here is the point made:


Even those outside of the Law, that is, Gentiles...could be in relationship with God by being obedient to the three witnesses of God Paul mentions: internal witness, Creation itself, and the Word of God.



Romans 1:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:



Romans 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Romans 3

King James Version (KJV)

31What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.



God has from the beginning revealed Himself to man through these three primary ways, and those found in obedience are regarded by God, and those who rebel are not.


Where in this can I be said to have men "justified by the Law?"

I hope this was unintentional.


God bless.

 

The absolute necessity of the new birth is universal:

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

As has been noted the phrase “born of the Spirit” is a participle in the perfect tense.

Young’s literal : John 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

A manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament; Dana and Mantey; The Macmillian Company. 1955 pgs. 179; 200.

At the discussion with Nicodemus, being “born again” was already happening and continuing to happen else why the following dialogue?

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

I believe the confusion comes as to the post regeneration results as applied institutionally and individually to the NT as opposed to those post-regenerative events of regeneration as applied to the OT saints.

 

Again, we see the same structure here:


John 6:54

King James Version (KJV)

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Now show me someone that placed their faith in the Risen Savior prior to Pentecost.

Who is it that you will provide that believed Christ died in their stead? That His death made provision for remission of sins?


Here are a few more:


John 3:36

King James Version (KJV)

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


John 5:24

King James Version (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


John 6:47

King James Version (KJV)

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.



Now if we consult the context of John 6 we will see the Lord clearly define what "believing" means, and that it is specific in believing the Gospel itself, which was not revealed to men during His Ministry.


It is sad to say this is one of the better arguments for Pre-Pentecost Regenerationists. For some, it is the only argument, and most will not address that which is provided which denies that men can be born again apart from the Ministry of the Comforter. Eternal Redemption was accomplished by Christ, and we can set a point in time when Christ died that He might reconcile man to God.


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


God bless.

 

Apparently creating your own context in others' posts does not bother you.

We are done.


God bless.

 

The Baptism with the Spirit is not being empowered, but is the indwelling of God:

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking.

In at least two places the KJV translators (IMO) have used an improper preposition:

with is ev in the Greek

KJV Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

correctly s/b IMO
ASV Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but there cometh he that is mightier than I, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:

ASV Acts 1:5 For John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

A new age and a new institution was beginning and the NT believers were then to be baptized into the Body of Christ not Moses, although they (Israel) did have a special relationship with the Spirit of Christ as no other nation on earth:

When Israel is referred to in this passage in Hebrews I believe it is redeemed Israel (I like to use that term for regenerate Israelites)
1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Obviously Biblicists and I vary a bit on this doctrine. I believe the OT saints were born again but did not have as a part of the everlasting gospel (and there can only be one) many of the promises pertaining to the coming Christ. Their salvation was based upon their faith in the Messiah whose blood was shed from the foundation of the world.

Otherwise there was NO forgiveness of sin because - the blood of bulls and goats was powerless as the agency of cleansing sin and they therefore could not enter His presence, not even the high priest.

Neither could they be called perfect or the "friend" of God or "righteous" as some were being yet alienated from Him and His Holy Spirit

The institution of the Nation of Israel as the visible presence of the kingdom of God on earth evoked from God a different result of the work of the Spirit against the NT having different heads (Moses - Christ) of which the Book of Hebrews addresses.

Although there were spiritually gifted men for Israel, they pointed to Israel's needs.

e.g.
Exodus 28:3 And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

Numbers 27:18 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;

over and over and over in the OT we see the Spirit coming upon or "in" someone

which leads to another issue. The Hebrew "inseparable preposition".
These are prepositions which prefix themselves to their nouns.
This idiomatic part of Hebrew is discussed in A Practical Grammar for Classical Hebrew, Weingreen, Clarendon Press. pgs 26 - 32.

Here is the issue e.g. - If one wanted to say that "And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me" one could not tell from the text whether Elisha said "And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me" or IN ME because the construct is the same for both prepositions (in and upon and/or with).

It seems (IMO) that the KJV translators had a preference for "with" or "upon" as their choice with the inseparable preposition although "in" was just as likely.

In the NT the inspired texts (speaking of the OT prophets) says this and there is no doubt that it is locative speaking of the Spirit:

1 Peter 1
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time which the Spirit of Christ was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Circumcision of the heart is the usual metaphor for the new birth in the OT.

Just because the institutional/individual post regenerative results are somewhat different doesn't mean that OT faith was not as genuine a NT faith or as a result of something other than regeneration.

There are other grammatical issues in the Hebrew, you should go through this whole series and read them. The Hebrews were not sticklers about precise and manicured doctrine as the NT koine text (this is of course the choice of God to make as such one way or another).

HankD

 

IMHO the OT saints who had the Spirit, died in faith, I say in faith because Christ, the faith had not come, nor had come the promise of the Spirit, which baptizes into the body of Christ, the church, Jerusalem above the mother of us all. Now when we die we are dead in Christ and in reality even being alive in the flesh we are dead, in Christ, to sin.

What to mothers do? Give birth.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Rom 6:6.7 However.

Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:Rom 6:8 Future tense along with those of the OT who died in faith. At his appearing we together with them shall be made perfect, born again into the kingdom of God. Hebrews 11:39,40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Being born again IMHO isn't about dividing the the living soul up in parts and birthing him over a span of time a part at a time, it is about taking a once living (temporal) soul and birthing it from above, as eternal soul.

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, (How) made (Born) of a woman, made (Born) under the law,

That Son died, What became of that dead Son?

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; ) Gal 1:1
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Acts 13:33
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21 Did God the Father give Jesus his Son glory or not?

These things happened folks, to Jesus, conceived by Spirit is Holy, brought forth by the virgin Mary. He was sinless, yet died and was the firstborn from the dead, not resurrected but firstborn. At his appearing when we are also born from the dead, in the image of, the Son of God, the Son will then be the firstborn of many brethren.

Is that not exactly what the word of God states? Have I miss quoted scripture?

Will we then sit down with Abraham, Issac and Jacob in the kingdom of God? Truly God is the God of the living.

 

No problem. The only possible issue is the timing. When did Abraham Isaac and Jacob become alive unto God?

HankD

 

Is purgatory a possibility??

HankD

 

They died in faith.

Abraham - Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Gen 12:1-3

Isaac - Gen 26:1-4 V4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Jacob - Gen 28:10-14 V14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

That in bold is the faith they died in. See Gal 3:2,14,16,18,19,21,23,24,25,26 and last but not least 29 And Christ having come died, resurrected ascended to the right hand of the Father and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit is the faith we die in.

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. From 1 Peter 1

 

For one thing Darrel none of these passages have exactly the same structure as John 3:8 and none use a perfect participle to prove that the new birth has been going on all along. The content of the everlasting gospel is faith in God and His revealed promise of the seed of the woman who would crush satan's head and save mankind from sin.

Any Jew in Jesus day who read and BELIEVED by faith Isaiah 53 was saved (IMO).

True, more and more truth is revealed as the day of the Son of God who would come in the flesh approached (and then proclaimed by John the Baptist, Jesus Himself and then the Apostles and disciples) then the closing of the NT canon.

The fact is that in the simplest and easiest to read and understand form of koine Greek (John's gospel) Jesus teaches Nicodemus that not only can he or anyone else not have, see or enter eternal life without being born again but that there were already those who had been born again and are being born again to this very day (Nicodemus day) and he (Nicodemus, a master in ISRAEL) should have known this fact.

Please address the grammar and syntax of John 3:8. Get any Greek grammar, any Greek expert you wish, ask your Bible school professor or your pastor about the passage (make sure you let him know it's a perfect participle) and then let's discuss IT and document your sources instead of deflecting to other scriptural situations (which do NOT have the same structure) and are under different circumstances.

HankD

 

OK but when did they become alive unto God Jesus talking to the pharisees (around AD 30) put it in the present tense.

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

HankD