The New Birth

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by SolaScriptura in 2003, May 9, 2003.

  1. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    Jesus talks to Nicodemus in John 3 about the new birth and says "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again" and "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit." Jesus is talking to Nicodemus all the way from verse 1 to verse 21, then in verse 22 there is a change and it says "After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized." --After telling Nicodemus that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit in order to enter the kingdom, Jesus went out and started a ministry of baptism which was to replace John's ministry for John says "he must increase and I must decrease." (v 30) Is this a coincidence? I don't believe it is. What do you think?
     
  2. BobRyan

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    John continued to Baptize even AFTER that event.

    Christ was pointing out to Nicodemus "before the Cross" that Nicodemus HIMSELF should already KNOW about the new birth "Are you a teacher in Israel and yet you do not know these things"?

    Christ was not "voiding" the work of John. Nor did Christ argue that the baptism of John was pointless. In fact Christ's OWN disciples were ONLY baptized by John. They were Baptized by No one else.

    Why Christ asked the question "Of whom was John's baptism" the reason for the question was to force the confession that it was authorized, approved - given of God.

    Souls lived and died - having only been baptized by John even AFTER the Baptism of Christ.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    "Are you a teacher in Israel and yet you do not know these things"?

    Could that mean "are you a teacher in Israel and do not realize what John's baptism is for?" Jesus discussion with Nicodemus (a Pharisee who probably denied John's baptism) concerning the new birth, the words "born of water and of the Spirit," Jesus' own ministry of baptism started immediately after this discussion, the question John's disciples had about purification - what do all these things point to?

    BTW, I think you are infering a bit much concerning my point. I did not mean to say that John's baptism was pointless or any of that kind of thing...rather the opposite actually. When I asked "Is this a coincidence?" I was refering to Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus and His starting to have His disciples baptize immediately afterwards; is that a coincidence? The comment about John was parenthetical and directly quoted from Scripture.

    [ May 10, 2003, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Nicodemus did not ask anything about Baptism and Christ did not refer to John. And in fact the practice of Baptism in the Jewish culture preceeded John.

    So "baptism did not start" after Christ spoke to Nicodemus. Christ was arguing that Nicodemus should have known the principle of being "Born again" as a Jewish teacher of scripture.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Southeastbaptist

    Southeastbaptist
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    "Except a man be born of water and the spirit, He can not see the kingdom of God."

    The Lord Jesus Christ is not speaking here of water as baptism. If we are going to compare these in other passages. We would come to the conclusion that this "water" is the word of God.

    Please consider the following passages:


    Ephesians 5:25
    Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

    5:26
    That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of WATER by the word,

    1 Pet.1:23
    Being born again , not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, the word of God the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Jas. 1:18
    Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
     
  6. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    SoutheastBaptist:

    Eph 5:26 "washing of WATER by the word" means "washing of water commanded by Christ's word" and the only washing of such character is baptism.

    Besides, Eph 5:26, Jas. 1:18, 1 Pet.1:23 (which you quote) must all be interpreted with respect to 1 Peter 1:3

    1 Peter 1:3 says He "hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." -- Does this mean that I was reborn when Jesus was resurrected????? No, because then I would have been reborn before being born. Rather, it must mean that something intimately connected with the resurrection and something commanded by the word of God affects my rebirth - this is baptism which according to 1 Peter 3:21 saves by the resurrection and Roman 6 is the likeness of His death, burial & resurrection, and of course is commanded by the Word Himself in the end of both Matthew's and Mark's gospels.

    Furthermore, the cheap trick of redefining "water" as "word" could be just as easily used to redefine "spirit" as "word" since Jesus said in John 6:63 "the words that I speak to you spirit" - but in both cases, such a redefinition is dishonest twisting of Scripture.


    Bob:

    I did not say baptism started after Christ spoke with Nicodemus, but that Christ's ministry of baptism did, and immediately so. The question at hand is this: HOW COULD NICODEMUS HAVE KNOW ABOUT THE NEW BIRTH? Jesus says he should have known, but WHY? In what way could he have known?
     
  7. Southeastbaptist

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    Eph 5:26 plainly says, washing of water by the word, you can not find any baptism here. Please be careful not to sin in adding to the word of God. Please don't ignore also the verse which plainly explain that we are born again by the word of God 1Pet 1:23.

    And also please don't ignore this verse:

    Jn. 15:3
    Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

    I'm so sorry that you don't know and even understand the scriptures.

    Apostle Peter is referring to the gospel, when he said " He hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." This means when you believe the gospel about his resurrection you are born again, you are saved.


    1Cor. 4:15
    For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

    1Cor. 15
    1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel gospel which i preached unto you,
    , which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 15:2 By which you are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures

    Eph. 1:13
    In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation : in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

    This is not a cheap trick of redefining "water" as word but the correct and scriptural method since the Word of God palinly says so as i've shown it before.

    The word of God, the gospel has the power to beget us because they are spirit and they are life. The literal water has no life and hence don't have power to make us children of God.

    Please remember not to violate:

    Deut. 4:2
    Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

    And also of:

    2Pet 1:20
    Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
     
  8. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    Deut. 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

    So, SEB, you can't take out Peter's statement "baptism does also now save you" from 1 Peter 3:21. Nor can you diminish the fact that sins are washed away in it from Acts 22:16 nor that it is in baptism that we are spiritually resurrected from Colossians 2:12. Nor can you diminish the word "water" by redefining it as "word" in John 3:5, nor can someone else diminish "spirit" by redefining it as "word" in John 3:5. Nor can you diminish that obedience is necessary to salvation from Heb 5:9 nor that God will take vengeance on those that obey not the gospel 2 Th 1:8.
     
  9. Yelsew

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    Unless you are born into this natural life, then born into the spiritual life, you cannot see the kingdom of heaven.

    You must be alive in this natural life in order to be born into the spiritual life. The spirit is the life of the flesh!

    Born of water occurs when the placenta breaks and the water issues forth, followed by the birth of the baby.

    Born of the spirit which is "spiritually not yet alive" until reborn. Is when the spirit is quickened by the individual's belief in God, Jesus.
     
  10. SolaScriptura in 2003

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    What Christ said in 3:5 was a response to Nicodemus' question about what Christ said in 3:3. In 3:5 Jesus was not stating the obvious (i.e. that Nicodemus had been born naturally) but explaining what he said in 3:3.

    (3:3) Christ: You must be born again.
    (3:4) Nicodemus: Huh? Is that even possible?
    (3:5) Christ: You must be born of water & the spirit.

    Christ expanded "born again" to "born of water & the spirit" to show Nicodemus not only that he must be born again, but HOW he must be born again and how it is POSSIBLE to be born again.
     
  11. Yelsew

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    John 3 The conversation with Nicodemus

    There was one of the Pharisees called Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews, who came to Jesus by night and said, "Rabbi, we know that you have come from God as a teacher; for no one could perform the signs that you do unless God were with him."

    Jesus answered: In all truth I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.

    Nicodemus said, "How can anyone who is already old be born? Is it possible to go back into the womb again and be born?"

    Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit; what is born of human nature is human; what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say: you must be born from above.

    The wind blows where it pleases; you can hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

    `How is that possible?" asked Nicodemus. Jesus replied, "You are the Teacher of Israel, and you do not know these things! `In all truth I tell you, we speak only about what we know and witness only to what we have seen and yet you people reject our evidence. If you do not believe me when I speak to you about earthly things, how will you believe me when I speak to you about heavenly things?

    No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of man; as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert,
    so must the Son of man be lifted up so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him. For this is how God loved the world:
    he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. For God sent his Son into the world
    not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved. No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God's only Son. And the judgement is this: though the light has come into the world people have preferred darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. And indeed, everybody who does wrong
    hates the light and avoids it, to prevent his actions from being shown up; but whoever does the truth comes out into the light, so that what he is doing may plainly appear as done in God."

    [ May 13, 2003, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
     
  12. SolaScriptura in 2003

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    He was refering to the bit about the wind. Nicodemus didn't even understand that.

    3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?"

    He didn't even get the earlthy things concerning the wind, so Jesus says "If I have told you earthly things [about the wind], and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?"
     
  13. Southeastbaptist

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    Sola Scriptura,

    God have mercy upon you for being confused and not rightly dividing the word of truth. You quote from 1 Pet. 3:21 just only the phrase ignoring the whole context.

    Let me quote the whole verse for you:
    1Pet.3:18

    For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us ( not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

    The verse plainly says it's like a figure of baptism and its not the literal water that saves since it says " not the putting away of the filth of the flesh . And it is very clear that Noah and his family was never got wet for they were all inside the ark when the flood came.

    It also supports the other verses which i presented before that it is by the resurrection of Jesus Christ not baptism we were begotten of God. It means you must only trust the saving power of the gospel. For it is also clear from the Scripture that ... that the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1Jn. 1:7

    Your interpretation that baptism cleanses our sins and that it has the power to give us new birth will certainly contradict the whole Bible. It undermine the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Be careful not to be under the curse of God:

    Galatians
    1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

    1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

    1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.



    And if you insist that noah
     
  14. BobRyan

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    As Peter said "Baptism now saves you - NOT the touch of magic water to the skin - but the APPEAL TO GOD for a clean conscience". It is not sprinkling infants - but it is the informed MIND APPEALing to God for a clean conscience - actively - explicitly - in response to the command of scripture.

    But "WHEN" are you saved? "With the MOUTH one confesses resulting in Salvation" Romans 10.

    Long BEFORE the act of obedience in Baptism - one is "born again" by the Holy Spirit who "Convicts the World of Sin and righteousness and jugment".

    Without being born again - you would never come to the point of obedience in Baptism.

    Acts 10 presents the model whereby the word is preached - the Holy Spirit acts (and even spiritual gifts were bestowed) and THEN we see - Baptism following.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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