The New Birth

Why? You know that there is no Baptist on this board that agrees with you that baptism saves. It has been discussed ad nauseam.

There are basically 3 views regarding being born of 'water'.

1. The water represents the birth water in the womb.

2 It represents baptismal water.

3. It represents the cleansing of the Holy Spirit. (Titus 3-5, Ez 36:25-26)


I hold to #3 personally.

 

Following is John Gill's comments on verse 5:

Ver. 5. Jesus answered, verily, verily, I say unto thee, &c.] Explaining somewhat more clearly, what he before said:

except a man be born of water and of the Spirit: these are, "two words", which express the same thing, as Kimchi observes in many places in his commentaries, and signify the grace of the Spirit of God. The Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read, "the Holy Spirit", and so Nonnus; and who doubtless is intended: by "water", is not meant material water, or baptismal water; for water baptism is never expressed by water only, without some additional word, which shows, that the ordinance of water baptism is intended: nor has baptism any regenerating influence in it; a person may be baptized, as Simon Magus was, and yet not born again; and it is so far from having any such virtue, that a person ought to be born again, before he is admitted to that ordinance: and though submission to it is necessary, in order to a person's entrance into a Gospel church state; yet it is not necessary to the kingdom of heaven, or to eternal life and salvation: such a mistaken sense of this text, seems to have given the first birth and rise to infant baptism in the African churches; who taking the words in this bad sense, concluded their children must be baptized, or they could not be saved; whereas by "water" is meant, in a figurative and metaphorical sense, the grace of God, as it is elsewhere; see Eze 36:25 Joh 4:14. Which is the moving cause of this new birth, and according to which God begets men again to, a lively hope, and that by which it is effected; for it is by the grace of God, and not by the power of man's free will, that any are regenerated, or made new creatures: and if Nicodemus was an officer in the temple, that took care to provide water at the feasts, as Dr. Lightfoot thinks, and as it should seem Nicodemon ben Gorion was, by the story before related of him; see Gill on "Joh 3:1"; very pertinently does our Lord make mention of water, it being his own element: regeneration is sometimes ascribed to God the Father, as in 1Pe 1:3 Jas 1:18, and sometimes to the Son, 1Jo 2:29 and here to the Spirit, as in Tit 3:5, who convinces of sin, sanctifies, renews, works faith, and every other grace; begins and carries on the work of grace, unto perfection;

he cannot enter into the kingdom of God; and unless a man has this work of his wrought on his soul, as he will never understand divine and spiritual things, so he can have no right to Gospel ordinances, or things appertaining to the kingdom of God; nor can he be thought to have passed from death to life, and to have entered into an open state of grace, and the kingdom of it; or that living and dying so, he shall ever enter into the kingdom of heaven; for unless a man is regenerated, he is not born heir apparent to it; and without internal holiness, shall not enter into it, enjoy it, or see God.

Sadly a lot of people fall under the category of the last comment.

 

Heh! Amy G. I believe John Gill agrees with you.

But, as you said, this water baptismal regeneration thing is getting old.

 

There's a 4th view - that the water represents the washing of God's word.

Number 3 above is backed up by Titus 3:5:
5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

 

For COC, the water refers to water baptism

But a passage like Ezekiel 36:24-27 and so on.

Water is often used with the Spirit as a metaphor (John 7:37-40).

 

Here's a possible translation: "Born of the water even the Spirit."

Notice what Jesus repeats in v. 6 - no mention of water.

Even though we differ as Baptists, we have not given into baptismal regeneration.

 

And Ephesians 5;27 refers to the "washing of water of the word." I take this to mean that when Paul said it pleased God to save through the foolishness of preaching (I Cor 1:21), this is what he meant. The Holy Spirit and the word of God are instruments in God's salvation.

 

I also agree that this is the most Scriptural position.
There are only two agents involved in the new birth:
1. The Holy Spirit, and,
2. The Word of God.

Jesus said:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
--Here he references the Holy Spirit. One must be born again of the Holy Spirit. We all agree on that. The Holy Spirit is a necessary agent of the New Birth. The question remains then, what does the water mean? What is the other agent of the New Birth. The Scripture makes this very clear:

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--Without the Word of God it is impossible to be born again. Without the gospel message it is impossible to be born again. God uses the Holy Spirit working through the Holy Spirit to draw people unto Himself.

Jesus said: "You are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you.
Water is a cleansing agent. Jesus compares the Word to a cleansing agent. It is the Word that cleanses us. It is the Word that saves us.
Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

 

This is the position of JSM17--Baptismal Regeneration.

Of course if water, in this passage, refers to baptism, then Christianity is no better than Hinduism. Go and baptize yourself like the Hindu in the holy waters of the Ganges River (as dirty as it may be), and have your sins washed away (according to their religion). Water may get you wet, but it will not wash away your sins. Even the prophet Jeremiah was wise enough to know that 600 years before Christ was born:

Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
--Not even the soap would help.

It is a foolish superstition of the COC.

 

JSM17
There is no need to "yell", and "sound" as if you are very angry. Using large and bolded text comes across that way.

Now, let me ask you: When was Paul saved? Was he saved when he called upon the name of the Lord, asking the Lord "What wilt thou have me to do?" or at some later point in his testimony? Was he saved on the road to Damascus or not?

 

Teaching baptismal regeneration is teaching baptismal regeneration whether by the RC or the COC. RC's don't require rebaptism after losing salvation just like the COC.

 

Saying that you were born again by "baptism" is the equivalent of saying that the blood of Christ was not sufficient enough to atone for our sins, and when he said "It is finished," he said it in vain.
Is that what you believe?

 

So your position on baptismal regeneration is distinguished from other? Ok.

By the way, whenever "faith and repentance" are used together, "repentance" always precedes "faith."

I know you COC folks like to talk about "Speaking where Scripture speaks and remain silent where it is silent."

Well, according to Scripture, "repentance" always precedes "faith" when both of them are used together (Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21; Heb 6:2).

It is "repentance" followed by "faith," so says Scripture.

Your order is out of sync.

How was Nicodemus to submit to Christian baptism when it wasn't even in effect as yet?

It is not necessary to interpret the text like that.

You can't have it both ways.

 

In a didactic letter like Romans, Paul tells us that people call upon the name of the Lord to be saved by their faith alone (10:11-17).

If Paul wanted to mention water baptism, he could have.

Water baptism is rite, a ritual. As a rite, it never points to itself. It finds its meaning in what it symbolizes.

So it is no strange thing to find baptism linked closely with what it symbolizes.

Baptism is often used as a metonymy.