The New Interpreters’s Study Bible (no doubt by accident) makes a case for Preterism!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Logos1, Dec 12, 2011.

  1. Logos1

    Logos1
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    If you have the bible please see page 1955 which is the beginning of the book of Acts.

    In verse 1:6 the disciples ask Jesus if he is about to restore the Kingdom to Israel. Some people believe they misunderstand the nature of the Kingdom or it implies a reign of Christ on earth as in a thousand year millennial reign. The article below clearly disputes this.

    First though look at Acts 1:3 which notes that Christ spend 40 days speaking to them about the Kingdom of God. Obviously after Christ has spoken to the Disciples for 40 days about the Kingdom of God they clearly understand exactly what he means by Kingdom and the article on page 1955 explains the Greek underlying their question implies a spiritual not literal Kingdom is the type of Kingdom referred to in their question.

    The article tells us that it is difficult to find an adequate phrase in English to convey the meaning of the Greek basileia tou theou. The Kingdom of God is problematic because it conveys the notion of a local with fixed boundaries. God’s basileia signifies divine Kingly rule or reign not Kingdom in a territorial sense.

    It goes on to state it conveys God’s saving power over all creation….It is authoritative power and empowerment by God with us.

    It clearly dispels the notion of a literal kingdom as being the point of the disciple’s question.

    Your Preterist Christmas present courtesy of the New Interpreters’s Study Bible.

    Merry Christmas,

    Logos1
     
  2. OldRegular

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    I believe that the insistence by "Full Preterism" that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD fulfills the many passages of Scripture regarding the visible return of Jesus Christ is sorely misguided, if not heretical!
     
  3. Martin Marprelate

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    I looked all through Acts 1 and I couldn't find any reference to AD 70.
    What I did find was, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority." I think you might do well to bear that in mind.
    Amen!

    Steve
     
  4. Logos1

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    How have you been Oldregular?

    Hope you well.

    Thanks for your comment--good to hear from you. I got a chuckle out of it. By this time I think it’s sort of cute when people say heretical about Preterism. Do you think I should change my name to Heretical1 instead of Logos1?

    I wonder if dispensationalists consider Paul off his rocker when he endorsed the Preterism viewpoint when he said in 1 Thel 15 “We who are still alive at the Lord’s coming….”

    Myself I just say if Preterism was good enough for Paul it’s good enough for me so I became a Preterist instead of living in denial about the 70 AD return of our Precious Lord and Savior.
     
  5. Logos1

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    Welcome to the thread Steve, pleasure to have you on board!

    Merry Christmas Steve,

    Hmmm, let’s see for starters Christ said in Revelation 7 times he was coming soon or words to that effect. In Matthew he said this generation would not pass before his return, Paul said in 1 Thel we who are still alive when he returns and I could just go on and on but what is the point. All time statements point to a first century return. I could point out His telling the Apostles they don’t know the exact time has nothing to do with not knowing the soon aspect of his return.

    You jolly fellow don’t have one single verse to claim he is coming thousands of years into the future. I won’t embarrass you by saying put up or shut up, because futurism is bankrupt from a scriptural stand point. You don’t even have one verse to lean on. I’ll just wish you a Happy New Year my fellow Baptist.

    Cheers
     
  6. OldRegular

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    Strange that Church history or secular history does not record anyone seeing Jesus Christ at his return in 70AD. One would think that the Church fathers would have something to say. Perhaps I have missed any record by the Church fathers, if so I would appreciate a reference.

    Now as I recall. well I will just look it up. Ah here it is! In the Book of Acts, first chapter, who would have thought:

    9. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    10. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


    Now the Biblical record is that when the disciples witnessed the ascension they saw the resurrected body of Jesus Christ. They were told that when He returned He would come in like manner. I believe that meand someone would see a visible Jesus Christ. I could be wrong but Scripture can't.

    Seems like I read something else about a visible return. Just a minute, just a minute. Now I know; first chapter of Revelation. That old Apostle John, bless his heart. I mean he always says just the right thing and don't mince any words:

    7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    Well I guess I will have to wait and see what history or the Church fathers have to say. I feel sure that somebody had to see Him. I am certain sure that Mr. Logos, did I get that correct, will post what the Church fathers had to say about seeing His return, don't you think. Somebody must have seen Him. I mean John says every body is going to see Him and that is a whole lot of folks. Now Iffin I saw somebody coming down without a parachute I shore would tell somebody, maybe even get a picture; that is unless he hit hard.
     
    #6 OldRegular, Dec 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2011
  7. Logos1

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    Teaming up with Oldregular to make the Preterist case

    Thank you dear Oldregular for helping Old Logos1 or is that Old Heretical1 to prove my point and point out how Luke and John were clearly Preterists. You guys (futurists) just make this like taking candy from a baby.

    Let’s see where to begin carving this roast up.

    1. You didn’t find a single verse saying Christ would return in the future, in a different generation or anything else that would hint, suggest, or let alone out right say His return would be a long time off.

    2. So these verses you are trying to torture into a new interpretation must out of necessity support a soon return of Christ—which of course they do.

    3. You were so lost in your preconceived notions I’ll forgive you for not realizing verse 9 in Acts 1 said he disappeared out of their sight so the case you are making if he returns in like manner means he will return invisible and out of sight. (Hmm, how to square that with Rev 1:7—stay tuned and I’ll provide some help on that) What the angels in verse 11 are saying is that he will come into heaven in like manner as you saw him go into heaven. His return is dealt with in other verses, but this only deals with his accession.

    The angels are simply testifying that he went into heaven when he disappeared out of their sight and they didn’t know where he was going. Think just how foolish it would sound to say he went into heaven right after you said he disappeared out of sight and you can’t see where he is going.

    4. Rev 1:7 doesn’t imply he will be seen with the eyeballs, but it implies discernment that when the Roman army comes in judgment against Jerusalem in 70 AD everyone will realize they represent the coming in judgment of the Lord.

    5. Lots of first century people saw this coming in judgment of the Lord and it is recorded in great detail by historians.

    6. Hmmm, your verses don’t say anything about seeing Christ return in the far off distant future, in a different generation or otherwise dispute the inspired writings which all agree on a soon coming of the Lord. Probably further bible study on your part will convince you to adjust your view point to align with scripture just as it did me instead of trying to twist the verses into some futurist fantasy for which they were never intended.

    7. Preconceived notions are a poor substitute for actual scripture. They have failed you for two thousand years and two billion years from now you will be still saying Christ is coming back in the future. Sad, entertaining in some perverse way, and no doubt very frustrating to futurists.


    I wonder if the Lord finds futurism just sad or as amusing as I do.

    (Thanks partner for setting the table for me)
     
  8. Robert Snow

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    In my opinion preterism denies the heart of God's promise to Israel. If we cannot trust what God promised in the OT, how can we believe His promise in the NT?
     
    #8 Robert Snow, Dec 12, 2011
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  9. Logos1

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    Preconceived notions wherefore art thou in scripture

    LOL, so typical no verses to make your case, no scripture to site, and no hope of finding any either—a view built not on scripture, but fantasy. That why it has failed for two thousand years and counting. Two billions years from now it will be still lame, unfulfilled, and hopeless.
     
  10. OldRegular

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    The Case Against the Error of Full Preterism

    Logos1

    In case you don't know it your misinterpretation of the verses I presented is called eisegesis. Those verses say nothing about time, near or far. Therefore, it is silly to say they support a soon return of Jesus Christ.

    Real smart Logos!. Real Smart! Obviously if something is rising it will eventually disappear out of SIGHT. Look at what the passage states.

    9. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    10. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


    The passage states: while they beheld, he was taken up;.

    While they beheld or were looking Jesus Christ was taken up. Simple, they saw Him as He was being taken up, apparently to heaven. Now they are told: Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Just in case you still don't understand. The disciples saw the resurrected Jesus Christ as He was taken up. The "two men in white apparel" say ye have seen him go into heaven.. And I am not going to argue with "two men in white apparel." They are then told, not that they would see Him return, but that, and pay attention, this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.. Got it yet. This same Jesus who was seen by some ascending and disappearing from sight will be seen by someone [And here it is important to recall what the Apostle John said:and every eye shall see him.] returning in like manner. That is He will be seen by the, dare I say it, naked eye.

    Mister Logos!

    I did not say where He was taken!!!! The two men in white apparel [Angels you say? Angels?] say this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Behold! It is the two men in white apparel [Angels? Angels you say??] who say He was taken to heaven, actually into heaven. Now I never argue with God.

    Pay attention Mister Logos!

    Now, Now Mister Logos!. Where O Where do you see the Roman Army in Revelation 1:7. Strange, very strange! You say the disciples could not see the resurrected Savior being taken up [as recorded in Scripture] and here 2000 years later you see the Roman Army. May I commend you on your eyesignt. They are, or should be, an object of scientific study!

    Mister Logos1,

    I am not saying that the destruction of Jerusalem was not the judgment of God. I am simply trying to get you to tell me who saw Jesus Christ return as "the two men in white apparel" said they would. Or as the beloved Apostle John said they would!

    Hmmm, Hmmmm, Mister Logos1. The passages I presented say nothing about the time of the return. But they do say it will be a visible return. Now if you can see the Roman Army in Revelation 1:7 perhaps you can see the visible return of Jesus Christ in 70 AD!

    Actually Mister Logos! I am not quite 2000 years old and don't expect to live 2 billion years, at least not on this earth. But I do expect to spend eternity in the New Heavens and New Earth with the Triune God, and to do so in a body like unto his glorious body. That is a resurrection body in case you don't know.

    Given your previous statement about 2 billion years I am at a loss to understand whether or not preterists also deny a bodily resurrection contrary to what Scripture states. If you believe in the resurrection of the believer when is this to occur, now and then? If you folks deny resurrection of the believer do you also deny the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul draws a very close connection between the resurrection of the believers and that of Jesus Christ in 1 Corrinthians 15. Consider what God through the Apostle Paul tells us in the following Scripture:

    1 Corinthians 15:12-19
    12. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
    14. And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
    15. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
    16. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
    17. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    18. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
    19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
     
    #10 OldRegular, Dec 12, 2011
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  11. Robert Snow

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    I edited my post so as to not be insulting. I did this before you posted your reply.

    It does not matter how many verses I post, you will have a pat answer to give in exchange. It seem like all people who major mainly on only one biblical topic do this.

    I believe that when the entire OT is taken into consideration it is evident that God will set up a literal, physical kingdom here on the earth. You are free to believe what you will.

    I believe the events that happened in 70 AD are a partial fulfillment of the future events Jesus talked about in the gospels.
     
  12. Logos1

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    Real smart Logos real smart

    Oldregular finding Logos to be right smart these days--I think he's coming around to the Preterist view point after all.

    The point is not that you didn’t say where Christ was taken when he was taken up—the point is the apostles didn’t say where he was taken either—they confessed he disappeared out of their site and they relied on the two angels to tell him where he went. Now if you want to say you are more inspired than the writers of the gospel and tell us you saw him go into heaven well that is no more far fetched than most of the rest of futurism so have at it.

    Also note I never relied on these verses to make my case that Christ would return soon (nice try to put words in my mouth) there are many other verses in the bible that tell us it will be a soon return of Christ. The point here is you answered my post disputing it would be soon with these verses. I just have to gently remind you that they don’t say it will be a long time before he comes back. I also gently remind you no other verses say it will be a long time before he comes back. Futurism is built on fantasy not scripture. Scripture is all on the side of Preterists. So you have never even started a legit case to dispute Preterism.

    As for every eyes seeing him you seem to think the bible was written in English and you are free to interpret Rev 1:7 as naked eye. If you wish to seek the truth you will kindly note the greek word horao here denotes discernment not seeing with the naked eyeball.

    So after several attempts you are still at ground zero on producing any verses that say Christ will be a long time in coming back or thousands of years into the future—Hmmm, might that be because no verses support your view and your fantasies are scriptural bankrupt and hopelessly devoid of support in the inspired writings. Hmmm, something for the futurist to ponder—two thousand years of failure and still counting.

    As for the attempt to mask your failed interpretations by changing the argument to one of resurrection I’ll leave that to a different post. I don’t blame you for trying to change the subject—I’m just not biting tonight.


    Real smart Logos, real smart—I knew if we endeavored long enough we would come to agreement on something—thank you my good fellow.
     
  13. Logos1

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    Retreating from the new testament are we?

    Ok I think I understand you don't have any new testament verses to support futurism--true enough--there aren't any.

    Soooo, you are going to try the old "I base my futurism on Old Testament Verses trick".

    Hey go for it--Let's see those Old Testament verses that refute Preterism, let's see where it says Christ will make a second coming thousands of years in the future, let's see where he will set up a literal kingdom. Care to share any actual verses or just claim you have some?
     
  14. JesusFan

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    yes, you would be in agreement with Apostle paul, see Romans 9-11...

    " For the Gifts and calling of God are irrovacable!"
     
  15. JesusFan

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    Well...

    The Apostle peter said that Jesus was being held in heaven until the time of his second coming, when ALL THINGS would be fully restored...

    Apostle paul said that Jesus would totally undo the Curse from the fall, all creation in bondage until he comes again...

    isaiah saw the Kingdom fully established upon earth by messiah, chaopter 66..

    ALL of that stuff happen yet, when jesus returned spirituall sense AD 70?
     
  16. Amy.G

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    Romans 11:25-26 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


    The deliverer out of Zion is the Lord Jesus Christ. Now at what point in history did Israel accept her Messiah? Did Israel turn away from ungodliness to Christ? Hasn't happened yet. Therefore, it is still in the future. And these verses cannot refer to the church because only Israel is ever referred to as "Jacob".
     
  17. JesusFan

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    isreal was called isreal still in Acts...

    paul called the jewish people as being isreal still in Romans...

    Must have missed that "interpretation" that had God saying from now on isreal means the Church!

    Guess 144,000 people mentioned as being called from tribes of isreal means the Church!
     
  18. OldRegular

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    No Resurrection of the Dead You Say! No Resurrection!

    You may think heresy is funny Logos but I don't and I don't think that God does either. I responded to each of your heretical assertions [with a little sarcasm thrown in]. You have answered nothing Mister Logos!. You respond with what? Nothing.

    And I rely on Scripture to tell me where He was taken.

    Apparently you and others who believe as you do think that you are more correct than Scripture since you ignore so much of what it teaches.

    Actually you have not presented a single verse proving your heresy. But that is to be expected!

    You are being disingenuous Logos. I used these verses to show that when Jesus Christ returns it will be a visible return. You falsely claim that Jesus Christ returned in 70 AD. I asked you for proof, who saw Him. You are still chasing your tail.


    I never claimed otherwise. In fact I specifically stated:
    With your naked eye that is.


    You keep using the term "futurism". I have no idea what you mean since there are different doctrines of the future and certain return of Jesus Christ just as there are different doctrines called preterism, some heretical and some not!

    Good try Logos! but you do err not knowing the Scripture.

    9. And when he had spoken these things, while they BEHELD, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    10. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    11. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


    Please read the passage and note the word "beheld" which I have emphasized.

    991 blepw blepo blep'-o

    a primary word; TDNT - 5:315,706; v

    KJV - see 90, take heed 12, behold 10, beware 4, look on 4, look 3, beware of 3, misc 9; 135

    1) to see, discern, of the bodily eye
    1a) with the bodily eye: to be possessed of sight, have the power of seeing
    1b) perceive by the use of the eyes: to see, look descry
    1c) to turn the eyes to anything: to look at, look upon, gaze at
    1d) to perceive by the senses, to feel
    1e) to discover by use, to know by experience
    2) metaph. to see with the mind's eye
    2a) to have (the power of) understanding
    2b) to discern mentally, observe, perceive, discover, understand
    2c) to turn the thoughts or direct the mind to a thing, to consider, contemplate, to look at, to weigh carefully, examine

    NOTE Logos that the primary meaning is to see with the bodily eye.

    You are still being disingenuous Mr. Logos!. I have never attempted to show Scripture saying that "Christ will be a long time in coming back". You in your heretical belief say that Jesus Christ returned in 70 AD. I have simply attempted to get you to show either in Scripture, history, or tradition of the Church fathers, that Jesus Christ returned in 70 Ad and that His return was visible as Scripture states His return will be! You can't because it is not true. The Apostle John was apparently alive after 70 AD. Strange that he knew nothing of this return of his Savior and Lord.


    As for my question concerning your belief in the resurrection of the body it was very, very pertinent. It turns out my suspicions were correct. Full or hyper preterists do not believe in a bodily resurrection! Sad, very sad. Not only sad but heretical! More on this later.

    Now if Logos! can only find ONE witness to the return of Jesus Christ in 70 AD!!!!
     
    #18 OldRegular, Dec 13, 2011
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  19. OldRegular

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    Correct! They do represent the redeemed!
     
  20. Amy.G

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    The 144,000 without question represents Jews. Rev 7:4-8 breaks it down into individual tribes of Israel. No Gentile, including you and me was ever part of a tribe of Israel.
     

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