"the original Baptist church"

Just wanted to ad this quote for interest:

We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at the reformation, we were reformers before Luther and Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel under ground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents. Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor, I believe, any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man. We have ever been ready to suffer, as our martyrologies will prove, but we are not ready to accept any help from the State, to prostitute the purity of the Bride of Christ to any alliance with Government, and we will never make the Church, although the Queen, the despot over the consciences of men.

—Charles H. Spurgeon



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I am fairly certain that trend began to come to an end in the mid 30s. At that time we see the rise of Finney and a move away from Particular Baptist theology altogether (Gill or Fuller's version).

 

Pentecost is too early, but I got that idea from readings of secular and religious histories from the early church fathers through migration era Western Europe and post-conquest Britain. There were reformers who pop up that I can identify with and admire. The Waldensians (sp?) are an example who, at least during their founders time, attempted to revert to primitive, Scriptural Christianity - though they still held to many Roman doctrines. The fact people recognized the need once they got their hands on a Bible they could read tells us that scriptural Christianity as we recognize it was largely unpracticed in an organized form during the interval from roughly Constantine to shortly after the beginning of the Reformation. Just my opinion.

This is what I assumed must have happened. Very much like Roger Williams (Note: I am not a Roger Williams apologist)

“By 1608/09, Smyth was convinced his Separatist church was not valid. Most of the members had only infant baptism, and the church was formed on the basis of a “covenant,” rather than a confession of faith in Christ. Smyth therefore led the church to disband in 1608/09 and re-form on a new basis–a personal confession of faith in Christ, followed by believer’s baptism. Since none of the members had been baptized as believers, Smyth had to make a new beginning. He baptized himself and then baptized the others. His baptism was by sprinkling or pouring, but it was for believers only.”

http://www.baptisthistory.org/bhhs/baptistorigins/baptistbeginnings.html

Here we see John got it wrong with that sprinkling stuff, but he was headed down the right track.

Indeed I do. I also think that organized Christianity lost its way in regard to believer’s baptism for many centuries. And by Baptist standards a proper Baptism is done by a local Church. Thus Roger Williams and John Smyth couldn't find a Baptist Church and or scripturally baptized Christian who could provide them with a baptism that would pass muster by today's standards. So they baptized themselves to get the ball rolling. Chicken or egg.

 

Thus Roger Williams and John Smyth couldn't find a Baptist Church...
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They should have gone to Wales from whence came the first two Baptist Churches in England.

Remember, those two blokes were chased out of England because of their viewpoints. It is somewhat strange that they should suddenly become "baptists" when there supposedly were none!!!!!!

Cheers,

Jim

 

Yes, where do people think St. Patrick got his baptist theology to reach the lost in Ireland as a missionary.....The Catholic pope didn't calim him and make him a saint until after he died................duh!

Cheers,

Jim

 

If I remember correctly, Hill Cliff Baptist Church was founded in the early 1600's.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Yes,mate, I think I said that, but not so many details.

There are two other churches in the Gloucester area that claim a much earlier founding...that is right on the Welsh border and makes some sense. I don't know how reliable Welsh Church history is. I have seen discrepancies.

Cheers,

Jim