The OT People

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Benjamin, Jun 27, 2006.

  1. Benjamin

    Benjamin
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    Would one consider their faith only a first step of justification and was there another step included that from the time they were first held accountable that they had to cover every sin with sacrifice according to the law from that point on with a need of these completed works of their own to be fully forgiven or righteous in the eyes of the Lord?
     
  2. J. Jump

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    Once they were seen through the blood the initial time their eternal destiny was set as eternal salvation is a one-time event. Their continued sacrifice was for post salvation sin, just as we are to continue to confess our sins and continually allow Jesus to wash us ie the foot washing ceremony.
     
  3. Joseph_Botwinick

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    JJ,

    Might you be referring to the mortification of sin? If so, I completely agree with you.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  4. J. Jump

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    JB I'm not sure what you mean by that terminology. Sometimes being simple minded has its disadvantages :) Expound on what you mean and I should be able to comment.
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

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    The most common text where this doctrine is found is in Romans 7 and 8, where Paul talks about his struggle with the old sin nature and he talks about daily putting to death, or starving, the sin nature that is at war with the desires of the spirit. I believe this is what is known as a life long process of sanctification. A famous Puritan Preacher named John Owens wrote a book about this doctrine entitled "Of the Mortification of Sin". You can read the whole book here.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #5 Joseph_Botwinick, Jun 27, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 27, 2006
  6. J. Jump

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    Yes...exactly we are to starve the flesh, but when a lapse is seen we have an Advocate before the Father and His blood will wash us if we will confess our sin.

    Thanks for the link!
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

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    No problem.

    :thumbs:

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  8. Benjamin

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    As per Owens words there is, “an infallible connection and coherence between true mortification and eternal life” or IOW between these two aspects of justification, if we use the means (Holy Spirit) we will obtain the end. We now have a promise that comes with instructions of a duty that is prescribed to the NT people and comes with the guidance of the HS, but as with the OT people what exactly was it that they believed would save them, perfect obedience in what they were told to do (a self righteousness) or faith in God that they, (the faithful) were covered? What guided them into a one-time event?
     
  9. J. Jump

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    Everyone past, present and future that receive eternal salvation did so or will do so based on grace through faith.
     
  10. Benjamin

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    Weren’t all of Israel God’s chosen people? If so, they had the grace of God, so why were some saved and some where not, what made the difference, the second aspect of justification by obedience?
     
  11. J. Jump

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    Why would you say that some where saved and others not?
     
  12. Marcia

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    Being the chosen people didn't mean they were saved. I don't think there is a text that indicates everyone in Israel had faith and believed God as Abraham (and others) did.
     
  13. Benjamin

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    Because, they had a choice to believe or not by faith in God’s grace.
     
  14. Benjamin

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    Exactly, they were saved by faith.



    The seeds of Abraham are the children of faith; Israel refers to the faithful throughout both OT and NT, yet another subject. If Israel (the Jews) were the called and had the inheritance of promise what happened to predestination in the OT? Why they weren’t justified in the OT is that they had inequity, supposedly an infallible connecting aspect of justification?
     
  15. J. Jump

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    Is there one that said they didn't as far eternal salvation is concerned? I don't remember seeing a verse that says anyone didn't believe the shed blood of the sacrifice covered their sin.

    Now there were a great number of Jews that didn't believe God concerning a vast number of other things, but that doesn't have anything to do with the eternal destiny.

    The NT would make a lot more sense and there would be a lot less confusion if people would understand that the Jews were a saved people.
     
  16. Benjamin

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    I don’t know if I’d say the Jews were a saved people, but a chosen people called to faith. I’m not sure what one would call the works that they did other than a sign of obedience because it did not actually cover their sins.
     
  17. J. Jump

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    Benjamin I know this will probably sound rude, but please understand that's not my intention, I'm just having a hard time with understanding what you are looking for or where you are coming from or where you are trying to get, because your postings are so brief.

    I'm a pretty simple minded person and it doesn't take much to get me off track :)

    Was the entire nation saved, each individual person? I'm not sure, it may be possible that someone didn't have faith in God saying that the blood of the animal would cover their sin.

    But what we should be focused on is the people in the NT were saved individuals. If we would understand that it would make the understanding of the NT a lot easier and a great number of issues that are cloudy would clear up.

    Maybe give some more details as to what you are trying to find out or what you are trying to accomplish. I want to be of service if I can, but I'm struggling with what you are seeking.
     
  18. Benjamin

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    There are so many variables and directions to go with the aspects of justification and predestination of the OT people and then relating it back to NT doctrines that I hardly no where to begin and I’m terrible about jumping on other tracks, people who know me tell me often they can’t keep up with me because I’m changing the subjects to fast so I don’t find it rude at all. I’ll work on that and try to keep focused on just a few points.


    Okay, a necessary side bar, one point, I can’t tell if you believe that the blood of animals actually did cover the OT saints sins; if it was a necessary aspect, a doctrinally proclaimed secondary aspect of justification of works (by Owen and others), in order for them to be truly saved. I would contend that in the case of the OT people they were justified by faith alone and were obedient to the sacrifices while also being indwelled with the HS because of their faith; they repented for forgiveness of sins, the blood of animals did not cover their sins, faith did. Also I know some think there was not an indwelling of the HS for these people but I disagree.


    I think we disagree here, the NT individuals were only going to be saved by faith, by Christ, those that thought they had it all wrapped up by pedigree (the called, elect) where straightened out by John the Baptist.

    (Mat 3:9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

    Abraham was the father of faith.


    Some believe in predestination of the called, thinking the order to be first you’re ordained from the foundation, then you’re given faith and works must follow by a secondary aspect in this type justification. There is a lot of push in the doctrine of grace with how God must be sovereign in this way; if so, I’m asking why didn’t the chosen people of God whom He called to faith in the OT respond then?
     
    #18 Benjamin, Jun 28, 2006
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  19. Marcia

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    I'm sort of confused by your post. Are you saying all the Jews were saved? You do realize that the book of Hebrews points out that the animal sacrifices did not bring salvation, right?

    To be saved, one had to believe God just as Abraham did, and so be considered righteous in God's eyes.
     
  20. J. Jump

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    Right...it was their faith in what God had told them to do. He told them to sacrifice the animals and that would be the death and shed blood necessary, which actually pointed to the Substitute that was to come, but salvaiton came by their faith alone.

    I would be one to disagree with you on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would come upon a person in the OT for a time, but never indwell them. I think you could possibly argue that He indwelt them for whatever time He was upon them, but I'm not sure I could go their either.

    David certainly knew that the Holy Spirit was not a permanant part of any promise as the Spirit was after Pentecost.



    See this is what I don't understand. You ask folks how were people in the OT saved. And most will agree with you that it was their faith in what God had told them about the sacrificial system.

    But something somehow magically changed in the NT. Why was their a change in the NT?

    I don't think there was. These people were still slaying the pascal lamb, which pointed to The Pascal Lamb that was going to be slain and God was still looking at them through the blood just as He had always done.

    No one could believe on Jesus as far as eternal salvation was concerned until after He had become The Pascal Lamb. And that didn't happen until after He shed His blood and died.

    There are several ways we can tell that the people that are addressed in the NT were eternally saved (alive spiritually). One of the easiest ways is to ask ourselves what was the message that was being delivered to these people.

    Was Jesus asking them to believe in His death as their Substitute? No. He was offering them a part in the heavenly aspect of His kingdom. There are two aspects to the rulership of the earth. One is a physical rulership from the physical earth and then there is a heavenly rulership from the heavens where Satan and his angels currently reign.

    Israel had already been promised the physical kingdom, so there was nothing that could be done regarding that. But Christ was here as the King of the kingdom and He was offering the opportunity to reign with Him in the heavens.

    It was a spiritual message that was being delivered (repent for the kingdom of the heavens is at hand [that's how Matthew gives it] or repent for the kingdom of God is at hand [how the others portrayed it]). But in order to even understand a spiritual message one must be alive spiritually.



    And that's what these folks had done. In Exodus 12 God established the Passover lamb. And Israel continued to slay the pascal lamb each year (except for a period of time in the wilderness - can't remember how long that was).

    But throughout time people placed their faith in what God had said regarding the pascal lamb. They were saved by faith just as anyone else is or will be.
     

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