The OT still counts

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, May 18, 2013.

  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    There is this popular notion that the Old Testament represents an effort on God's part to save people one way and, when God failed miserably at that, he brought in this new and better way. Since he has done that, you can do with the old way what God has done with it- abandon it.

    This leads to this notion that you base your faith and practice strictly on the New Testament alone with special emphasis on the "red letters."

    It's how Bill O'Reily justifies not condemning homosexuality. He says, "Jesus never mentioned it," as if that makes God ambiguous on the issue. Pardon my carnality here but I find myself wanting to scream at the TV, "SO THE HECK WHAT!?!?!" Since when did we so narrow the application of the Scriptures to just the NT, or WORSE, to just the words in "red letters"?!?!?!

    NOTHING in the OT has been done away with except those things that were contextually only intended for national Israel (kill the canaanites, no pork, etc...) and those things that were ceremonial which Jesus fulfilled.

    The moral law of God is still in effect as much as it ever was- perhaps more so. It is no LESS a sin to commit adultery today than it was when steam still rose from the stone tablets of Sinai.

    The death penalty is as appropriate today as it was when the flood waters were still in recession in Genesis 9.

    Tithing is still as much expected as it was when Malachi's pen was still moist with the ink that gave us our last OT book.

    The Lord's Day is the Sabbath- yes, there are still TEN commandments.

    The law no more made people righteous in Moses' day than it does today.

    Salvation has always been by grace through faith. That was as true for Able, Abraham, Joshua and David as it is for you.

    There is not this big disconnect between the testaments. The New stands on top of the Old and they are inextricably linked. The Old flows into the New and the New fulfills the Old.

    Until you see that, you are going to make TONS of interpretive errors as you study and, worse, teach the Bible
     
    #1 Luke2427, May 18, 2013
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  2. saturneptune

    saturneptune
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    Luke
    IMO, the purpose of the OT is to prepare for the coming of Jesus Christ, and the purpose of the NT is to reveal Jesus Christ. They work in perfect harmony according to God's plan, and there is no contridiction, only our own misunderstanding.
     
  3. Luke2427

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    Yes, but the popular notion in evangelicalism today is that we are just supposed to follow the words of Jesus and basically ignore the Old Testament.

    This is terrible hermeneutics.
     
  4. convicted1

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    Well, the Law died when Jesus arose. We don't have the OT and NT concurrently, but rather, the NT supercedes the OT.

    The Law, which could not bring justification, was weak, in that it dealt with the fleshly man.....iow, it was a fleshly covenant that God had with the Israelites. The Law could only bring condemnation, and never, justification.



    Now, if the OT still counts, then why did Christ have to redeem....by us back.....from being under the Law?


    The only thing the Law can do is condemn and bring sinners to Christ. Grace, and Grace alone, places anyone in Christ. When we were sinners, we were under the Law, because it was a curse for us, in that none of us could keep it. It is what brings us to, not into, but to, Christ. That's the only thing the Law can do, is condemn and bring us to Him.




    OT people such as Jacob and Esau, and Isaac and Ishmael were symbols of the flesh(Ishmael and Esau) and the spirit/soul of man(Jacob and Isaac). The flesh can never obtain righteouness before God because He deals with the souls of mankind, and not their flesh. And after salvation takes place, the flesh buffets the soul till we die. Esau wept and never received it, because he sold his birth right, and plus, he was a symbol of the flesh, and the flesh can never obtain it until Jesus Christ returns and changes the fleshly body into a spiritual body and reunites that body with the soul that is in the Cloud with Him.



    The "blotting out the handwritting of orinances that was against us", is referring to the Law. He nailed the Law to cross via His flesh.




    So, in summation, when Christ died, was buried, and then arose, He abolished the Law, and we now live under the Grace Covenant.
     
    #4 convicted1, May 19, 2013
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  5. Luke2427

    Luke2427
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    I'll deal with this in more detail later but for now:

    1. Do you think the law was ever intended to make people righteous?

    2. Do you think the OT saints did not live under Grace?

    3. Do you think they got to heaven very differently than we do?

    4. Do you not understand that all men throughout history who have ever been saved have had to be redeemed from the curse of the law? This is not a New Testament thing.
     
  6. convicted1

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    Nope. The Law was God's way of showing mankind that regardless how hard they try/tried, they can not/could not keep themselves.

    Well, Noah found Grace in God's eyes, but he, nor his descendents were under the Grace Covenant. This, however, was pre-Law, but still, they were looking towards Jesus Christ and the cross.

    Nope.


    I agree with this. However, those who died prior to Christ's coming, died looking towards the cross.

    Now, here's two verses I want you to get a grasp of, and then come back to the deabte:


    Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


    Gal. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
     
  7. convicted1

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    And here's another passage to chew on Brother Luke:

    "Written and engraven in stones" is referring to the Law. The "letter killeth" is also referring to the Law. "But the Spirit giveth life" is referring to the Grace Covenant. Sinners are under the Law, because they are in a state of condemnation. The Law, it can only condemn, and bring us to Christ, not into Christ. Only Grace can place us in Christ.
     
  8. saturneptune

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    Yes, we are under grace and not the law during this era. However, I do not think you can say the OT is not there or ignore the teachings in it. There should be no conflict between the two. They are in perfect harmony.
     
  9. gb93433

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    So much of what Jesus taught in the Gospels had its origin in the OT. Even discipleship had its origin in Judaism. Jesus selected his disciples from an area that was known for discipleship. When Jesus said, ""You did not choose Me but I chose you, . . . " they knew exactly what he meant because of their understanding of what it meant to be the disciple of a rabbi in Judaism and how they were selected.
     
  10. Yeshua1

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    The OT was inspired by God to us as much as the NT was, its just that we see it in the principles of How God works, How he "operates", and learn from those example and principles in there, but MUST read the OT thru lens of the Cross of the NT, as we are NOT under the law, but now under grace!
     
  11. Luke2427

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    The letter has always killed. That is not unique to the NT.

    So why the difference?
     
  12. Luke2427

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    How were THEY under the law differently than we are?
     
  13. Luke2427

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    What do YOU mean when you say the law died?

    How did it die?

    In what way is it dead to us in contradistinction from being alive to them?
     
  14. gb93433

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    There is the spirit in which God gave the OT Law. The religious folks had disregarded that. That is what Jesus addressed in the SOM. Just as a judge can go by the letter of the law it must also be tempered by the spirit of the law.
     
  15. convicted1

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    Brother Luke, I am not goining through this again with you. You can reread my original posts and take it from there.


    What about "The Law and Prophets were until John, and since then, the Kingdom of Heaven is preached, and man presseth into it"?

    What about "If righteousness cometh by the Law, then Christ is dead in vain?
     
  16. convicted1

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    Here's another passage to chew on Brother Luke:


    We become dead to the Law by the body of Christ. When we were sinners, we were under bondage, condemnation, etc. When we are saved and placed in Christ, the yoke of bondage, condemnation, sin, etc. is broken.
     
  17. convicted1

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    And another one:

    Again, Christ took away the curse, which was the Law. We, who are of the body of Christ, have become dead to the Law, and now live under the Grace Covenant.
     
  18. kyredneck

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    I was raised in a strong fundamentalist, Scofield brand dispensational SB Church and this is the very notion I had acquired as a youngster.

    IS DISPENSATIONALISM PROPER BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION?

    You better believe it's terrible hermeneutics.

    52 And he said unto them, Therefore every scribe who hath been made a disciple to the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is a householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. Mt 13

    23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was reckoned unto him;
    24 but for our sake also, unto whom it shall be reckoned, who believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, Ro 4

    For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that through patience and through comfort of the scriptures we might have hope. Ro 15:4

    For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn. Is it for the oxen that God careth, or saith he it assuredly for our sake? Yea, for our sake it was written: because he that ploweth ought to plow in hope, and he that thresheth, to thresh in hope of partaking. 1 Cor 9:9,10

    Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. 1 Cor 10:11

    15 And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.
    17 That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work. 1 Tim 3

    7 The law of Jehovah is perfect, restoring the soul: The testimony of Jehovah is sure, making wise the simple.
    8 The precepts of Jehovah are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of Jehovah is pure, enlightening the eyes.
    9 The fear of Jehovah is clean, enduring for ever: The ordinances of Jehovah are true, and righteous altogether.
    10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the droppings of the honeycomb.
    11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: In keeping them there is great reward.
    12 Who can discern his errors? Clear thou me from hidden faults. Ps 19
     
    #18 kyredneck, May 22, 2013
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  19. kyredneck

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    and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5:29

    for all of us it behoveth to be manifested before the tribunal of the Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body, in reference to the things that he did, whether good or evil; 2 Cor 5:10 YLT

    Willis, on what grounds will 'good and evil' be defined at the judgment?
     
    #19 kyredneck, May 22, 2013
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  20. Crabtownboy

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    If you are still under the law then you are not under grace. Tough place to be as no one can follow the law perfectly. Thank God for Christ and grace that frees us from the law.
     

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