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Featured The Parable of the Lost-Centering on the Lost son

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by revmwc, Mar 24, 2016.

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  1. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Let me add something:
    From Calvin:
    "

    Verse 17

    17.And when he came to himself. Here is described to us the way in which God invites men to repentance. If of their own accord they were wise, and became submissive, he would draw them more gently; but as they never stoop to obedience, till they have been subdued by the rod, he chastises them severely. Accordingly, to this young man, whom abundance (534) rendered fierce and rebellious, hunger proved to be the best teacher. Instructed by this example, let us not imagine that God deals cruelly with us, if at any time he visits us with heavy afflictions; for in this manner those who were obstinate and intoxicated with mirth are taught by him to be obedient. In short, all the miseries which we endure are a profitable invitation to repentance. (535) But as we are slow, we scarcely ever regain a sound mind, unless when we are forced by extreme distress; for until we are pressed by difficulties on every hand, and shut up to despair, the flesh always indulges in gaiety, or at least recoils. Hence we infer, that there is no reason to wonder, if the Lord often uses violent and even repeated strokes, in order to subdue our obstinacy, and, as the proverb runs, applies hard wedges to hard knots. It must also be observed, that the hope of bettering his condition, if he returned to his father, gave this young man courage to repent; for no severity of punishment will soften our depravity, or make us displeased with our sins, till we perceive some advantage. As this young man, therefore, is induced by confidence in his father’s kindness to seek reconciliation, so the beginning of our repentance must be an acknowledgment of the mercy of God to excite in us favorable hopes.


    Verse 25

    This latter portion of the parable charges those persons with cruelty, who would wickedly choose to set limits to the grace of God, as if they envied the salvation of wretched sinners. For we know that this is pointed at the haughtiness of the scribes, (543) who did not think that they received the reward due to their merits, if Christ admitted publicans and the common people to the hope of the eternal inheritance. The substance of it therefore is, that, if we are desirous to be reckoned the children of God, we must forgive in a brotherly manner the faults of brethren, which He forgives with fatherly kindness.

    25.And his elder son was in the field. Those who think that, under the figure of the first-born son, the Jewish nation is described, have indeed some argument on their side; but I do not think that they attend sufficiently to the whole of the passage. For the discourse was occasioned by the murmuring of the scribes, who took offense at the kindness of Christ towards wretched persons who had led a wicked life. He therefore compares the scribes, who were swelled with presumption, to good and modest men, who had always lived with decency and sobriety, and had honorably supported their family; nay, even to obedient children, who throughout their whole life had patiently submitted to their father’s control. And though they were utterly unworthy of this commendation, yet Christ, speaking according to their belief, attributes to them, by way of concession, their pretended holiness, as if it had been virtue; as if he had said, Though I were to grant to you what you falsely boast of, that you have always been obedient children to God, still you ought not so haughtily and cruelly to reject your brethren, when they repent of their wicked life.

    Verse 28

    28.Therefore his father went out. By these words he reproaches hypocrites with intolerable pride, which makes it necessary that the Father should entreat them not to envy the compassion manifested to their brethren. Now though God does not entreat, yet by his example he exhorts us to bear with the faults of our brethren. And in order to take away every excuse from wicked severity, he not only introduces hypocrites as speaking, whose false boasting might be confuted, but even affirms that, though any man had discharged, in the most perfect manner, all the duties of piety towards the Father, yet he has no just reason to complain because his brother obtains pardon. It is certain, indeed, that the sincere worshippers of God are always pure and free from this malignant disposition; but the design of Christ is, to show that it would be unjust in any man to murmur on account of his brother having been received into favor, even though he were not inferior in holiness to the angels.

    Verse 31

    31.Son, (544) thou art always with me. This answer consists of two parts. The first is, that the first-born son has no reason to be angry, when he sees his brother kindly received without any loss to himself; (545) and the second is, that, without paying any regard to his brother’s safety, he is grieved on account of the rejoicing occasioned by his return. All my property, says he, is thine: that is, “Though thou hast hitherto carried nothing away out of my house, it has been no loss to the for all is reserved for thee undiminished.” (546) Besides, why art thou offended at our joy, in which thou oughtest to have shared? for it was proper that thy brother, who we thought had been lost, should now be congratulated on his safety and return. Those two reasons deserve our attention; for, on the one hand, it is no loss to us, (547) if God graciously receives into favor those who had been at variance with him on account of their sins; and, on the other hand, it is wicked hardness of heart not to rejoice, when we see our brethren returned from death to life. (548)"
     
  2. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Matthew Henry:

    "The younger son is the prodigal, whose character and case are here designed to represent that of a sinner, that of every one of us in our natural state, but especially of some. Now we are to observe concerning him,

    1. His riot and ramble when he was a prodigal, and the extravagances and miseries he fell into. We are told,

    (1.) What his request to his father was (Luke 15:12): He said to his father, proudly and pertly enough, "Father, give me"--he might have put a little more in his mouth, and have said, Pray give me, or, Sir, if you please, give me, but he makes an imperious demand--"give me the portion of goods that falleth to me not so much as you think fit to allot to me, but that which falls to me as my due." Note, It is bad, and the beginning of worse, when men look upon God's gifts as debts. "Give me the portion, all my child's part, that falls to me " not, "Try me with a little, and see how I can manage that, and accordingly trust me with more " but, "Give it me all at present in possession, and I will never expect any thing in reversion, any thing hereafter." Note, The great folly of sinners, and that which ruins them, is being content to have their portion in hand, now in this lifetime to receive their good things. They look only at the things that are seen, that are temporal, and covet only a present gratification, but have no care for a future felicity, when that is spent and gone. And why did he desire to have his portion in his own hands? Was it that he might apply himself to business, and trade with it, and so make it more? No, he had no thought of that. But, [1.] He was weary of his father's government, of the good order and discipline of his father's family, and was fond of liberty falsely so called, but indeed the greatest slavery, for such a liberty to sin is. See the folly of many young men, who are religiously educated, but are impatient of the confinement of their education, and never think themselves their own masters, their own men, till they have broken all God's bands in sunder, and cast away his cords from them, and, instead of them, bound themselves with the cords of their own lust. Here is the original of the apostasy of sinners from God they will not be tied up to the rules of God's government they will themselves be as gods, knowing no other good and evil than what themselves please. [2.] He was willing to get from under his father's eye, for that was always a check upon him, and often gave a check to him. A shyness of God, and a willingness to disbelieve his omniscience, are at the bottom of the wickedness of the wicked. [3.] He was distrustful of his father's management. He would have his portion of goods himself, for he thought that his father would be laying up for hereafter for him, and, in order to that, would limit him in his present expenses, and that he did not like. [4.] He was proud of himself, and had a great conceit of his own sufficiency. He thought that if he had but his portion in his own hands he could manage it better than his father did, and make a better figure with it. There are more young people ruined by pride than by any one lust whatsoever. Our first parents ruined themselves and all theirs by a foolish ambition to be independent, and not to be beholden even to God himself and this is at the bottom of sinners' persisting in their sin--they will be for themselves.

    (2.) How kind his father was to him: He divided unto them his living. He computed what he had to dispose of between his sons, and gave the younger son his share, and offered the elder his, which ought to be a double portion but, it should seem, he desired his father to keep it in his own hands still, and we may see what he got by it (Luke 15:31): All that I have is thine. He got all by staying for something in reserve. He gave the younger son what he asked, and the son had no reason to complain that he did him any wrong in the dividend he had as much as he expected, and perhaps more. [1.] Thus he might now see his father's kindness, how willing he was to please him and make him easy, and that he was not such an unkind father as he was willing to represent him when he wanted an excuse to be gone. [2.] Thus he would in a little time be made to see his own folly, and that he was not such a wise manager for himself as he would be thought to be. Note, God is a kind Father to all his children, and gives to them all life, and breath, and all things, even to the evil and unthankful, dieilen autois ton bion--He divided to them life. God's giving us life is putting us in a capacity to serve and glorify him.

    (3.) How he managed himself when he had got his portion in his own hands. He set himself to spend it as fast as he could, and, as prodigals generally do, in a little time he made himself a beggar: not many days after, Luke 15:13. Note, if God leave us ever so little to ourselves, it will not be long ere we depart from him. When the bridle of restraining grace is taken off we are soon gone. That which the younger son determined was to be gone presently, and, in order to that, he gathered all together. Sinners, that go astray from God, venture their all.

    Now the condition of the prodigal in this ramble of his represents to us a sinful state, that miserable state into which man is fallen."
     
  3. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Matthew Henry:
    "

    4. We have here the repining and envying of the elder brother, which is described by way of reproof to the scribes and Pharisees, to show them the folly and wickedness of their discontent at the repentance and conversion of the publicans and sinners, and the favour Christ showed them and he represents it so as not to aggravate the matter, but as allowing them still the privileges of elder brethren: the Jews had those privileges (though the Gentiles were favoured), for the preaching of the gospel must begin at Jerusalem. Christ, when he reproved them for their faults, yet accosted them mildly, to smooth them into a good temper towards the poor publicans. But by the elder brother here we may understand those who are really good, and have been so from their youth up, and never went astray into any vicious course of living, who comparatively need no repentance and to such these words in the close, Son, thou art ever with me, are applicable without any difficulty, but not to the scribes and Pharisees. Now concerning the elder brother, observe,"
     
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Exactly. They were spiritual Israel. Believing Israel. It is they, as Jesus said, who 'art ever with me.'

    You have no warrant to call lost what Jesus said is not.

    Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
     
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  5. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    You might need to retread it both stated the older brother was like the Pharisees and scribes. So if he was a child of God so too were the ones who had Christ crucified. I noticed you took one portion and not the whole
     
  6. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    It is the same language used in Proverbs 23:26 "My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways."

    We will have to disagree that this language also applies to me giving my heart to the Lord.

    I agree. That is why I said that God desires that all men should be saved. He extends the offer of His grace to every man (Titus 2:11).
     
  7. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Himself used the example of Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness. To be healed, all they had to do was take the initiative to look at the brazen serpent.

    Was Moses' part in the healing completed when he made the brazen serpent or when the people looked at it? Can we assume that Moses was willing that everybody who had been bitten look at the serpent and be healed? Did those who were bitten and subsequently died do so simply because they failed to take the initiative and look at the serpent?
     
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    And who would turn? Those who had already believed? If they didn't believe they wouldn't have turned.

    The point of the serpent in the wilderness was that it was a prophecy of the crucifixion, not of a detailed point of soteriology. :)
     
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  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    You either believe what Jesus said or you don't. Jesus said "Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine." I believe Him.
     
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  10. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps. It is not entirely unlikely that many would have turned and looked at the urging of friends and family.

    I disagree. The entire chapter is dealing with salvation. In the very next verse, Jesus likens looking at Moses' serpent to believing on Him.
    John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
     
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  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes. The focus is the crucifixion, which even the 12 were having trouble accepting. They were not expecting the suffering Savior, they were expecting the King of the Jews. He was redirecting their attention away from their political, physical plight to their spiritual plight. At that point they needed the Suffering Savior more than they needed the King of the Jews. :)
     
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  12. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Let's pick up from the part you chose to center in on, I bolded the part you chose, now here is the balance"

    "But by the elder brother here we may understand those who are really good, and have been so from their youth up, and never went astray into any vicious course of living, who comparatively need no repentance and to such these words in the close, Son, thou art ever with me, are applicable without any difficulty, but not to the scribes and Pharisees. Now concerning the elder brother, observe,

    (1.) How foolish and fretful he was upon occasion of his brother's reception, and how he was disgusted at it. It seems he was abroad in the field, in the country, when his brother came, and by the time he had returned home the mirth was begun When he drew nigh to the house he heard music and dancing, either while the dinner was getting ready, or rather after they had eaten and were full, Luke 15:25. He enquired what these things meant (Luke 15:26), and was informed that his brother was come, and his father had made him a feast for his welcome home, and great joy there was because he had received him safe and sound, Luke 15:27. It is but one word in the original, he had received him hygiainonta--in health, well both in body and mind. He received him not only well in body, but a penitent, returned to his right mind, and well reconciled to his father's house, cured of his vices and his rakish disposition, else he had not been received safe and sound. Now this offended him to the highest degree: He was angry, and would not go in (Luke 15:28), not only because he was resolved he would not himself join in the mirth, but because he would show his displeasure at it, and would intimate to his father that he should have kept out his younger brother. This shows what is a common fault,

    [1.] In men's families. Those who have always been a comfort to their parents think they should have the monopoly of their parents' favours, and are apt to be too sharp upon those who have transgressed, and to grudge their parents' kindness to them."
     
  13. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    Except for the fact that Jesus was not talking to the disciples; He was having a private conversation with Nicodemus. The topic of His conversation is indeed salvation, specifically Nicodemus' salvation.

    Regardless, I'll give you the last word, my good friend. I doubt that I could state my position any more clearly than I already have.
     
  14. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Instead of looking at others calling him a pharisee or Scribe, why not get truth from the Biblical language that TCassidy has so aptly showed you? The biblical language speaks of him as a son (the elder). This is clearly seen.

    I must ask, is it only because this clear evidence goes against what you want to believe, that you reject it? Is it more important to be right than it is to admit to the clear biblical language shows you otherwise concerning the elder son?
     
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  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Pastor_Bob,

    Is it? lets look together. I always understood in proverbs Solomon is making his wisdom known in the language of an earthly father to an earthly son.....If you do not mind I will examine the surrounding verses to see if that is indeed the case, or is this one verse an evangelistic gem hidden away in the OT Book.
    yes ...it is a father speaking to his son...


    12 Apply thine heart unto instruction, and thine ears to the words of knowledge.

    13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

    14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

    15 My son, if thine heart be wise, my heart shall rejoice, even mine.

    16 Yea, my reins shall rejoice, when thy lips speak right things.

    17 Let not thine heart envy sinners: but be thou in the fear of the Lord all the day long.


    CLEARLY THIS IS SPEAKING ABOUT AN EARTHLY SET OF PARENTS CONCERNED FOR THEIR EARTHLY SON...
    19 Hear thou, my son, and be wise, and guide thine heart in the way.

    20 Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:

    21 For the drunkard and the glutton shall come to poverty: and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

    22 Hearken unto thy father that begat thee, and despise not thy mother when she is old.

    So it is earthly parents instructing their earthly son not to hang out with the immoral....




    NOW WE APPROACH THE VERSE YOU OFFERED....LETS SEE....
    25 Thy father and thy mother shall be glad, and she that bare thee shall rejoice.


    26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways.


    27 For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit.


    well it is the earthly parents again trying to gain his heart , so that he will follow their caution about chasing the local whore, the strange woman.....so no your verse did not work at all. It is not used in any evangelistic context anywhere so maybe we should follow that pattern instead.
    No...sorry...but i cannot agree at all as that is not even remotely suggested here at all....

    But we can admit that it is not suggested anywhere in scripture and use what is suggested...

    yes... we can agree here that the gospel is to preached to all men everywhere
     
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  16. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    That is all I need so I snipped off the ending.

    You've nailed it. The problem becomes when we look at passages as soteriological when they are not. This is one of them that is not. Thanks for the solid post.
     
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  17. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    It better be finished before TC moves in. He'd battle drafts, leaks, potential break-ins, &c. :D :) ;)
     
  18. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Bro. mwc, please put down Henry's & Calvin's writings. You are abusing and misapplying them.
     
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  19. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    mwc,

    This entire thread begs the question.

    In your OP and your other responses there is the exaltation of man, over and over. What man can do, by the power of his will, free will and etc. Nothing is said to exalt Christ in salvation. Nothing.

    Is your theological position Joel Osteen-lite? It carries the same sense. Are you an Osteen fan? He preaches the same as you only to the full extreme. I ask this in all sincerity.
     
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  20. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    Brother, if you cannot read what I'm writing and at least see the application I am making, whether you agree or disagree, there is no need to respond to my posts. Notice the words, "It's the same language..." No one is supporting any doctrine, just making an application.

    Again, please read carefully my words, "We will have to disagree..." It seems you're only reading what you want to read in my posts even if it is not written therein.
     
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