the Passover Jesus celebrated with his disciples

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Nov 14, 2008.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    I owe the heading of this thread to Thinkingstuff.

    I take he meant with 'Passover', the passove-meal.

    Open invitation:

    Why would you say it was the passover-meal?

    (I say it was not the passover-meal.)
     
  2. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    'Nuff said. :rolleyes:

    Ed
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ja, you said something, and it may sound watertight.

    But let's change your underlining, “Where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?”, to, “Where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?”

    And then enquire after a few other things.

    "Where is the guestroom where, I with my disciples, may eat, the Passover".
    Where: in the room;
    When "the Passover", that Passover, on it, the Passover season.
    Where we may eat this Passover. It says not 'Where we shall eat the Passover Meal.
    It says not, 'shall eat'; it says, 'may eat' - Jesus well knowing He won't, but the disciples would.

    Ja, you said something, and it may have sounded watertight; but was not watertight.
     
    #3 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Nov 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2008
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    "Where is the guestroom where, I with my disciples, may eat, (it being) the Passover".
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    "16 So His disciples went out, and came into the city, and found it just as He had said to them; and they prepared the Passover.
    17 In the evening He came with the twelve. 18 Now as they sat and ate, Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you who eats with Me will betray Me.” (Mk. 14:1, 14-18 - NKJV)"


    GE:

    Ed Sutton, Where is verse 15? Why have you left it out? You said enough for yourself, but not for what would be the whole picture. Ed Sutton, Why did you leave out verse 15? Because it reads: Jesus told his disciples, "He will show you a large upper room furnished and prepaired" --- already!

    Now read carefully the literal text, 'ekei etoimasate hehmin': "There be you (the two disciples Jesus sent before, verse 13a) ready for us (others who will meet you there)".
     
    #5 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Nov 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2008
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    16 So His (two) disciples went out, and came into the city, and found it just as He had said to them; and they prepared the Passover all the same" ---'hehtoimadzoh', 'they prepared all the same' - just like all the others did for Passover 'bedikat chamets', eaten on the evening and beginning of Nisan 14!!

    Then:
    "17 In the evening (Luke says after one hour) He came with the (rest of the) twelve."


    "18 Now as they sat and ate,...."
    Make that,
    "18 Now as they sat and ate,...." not Jesus, but they.

    ".... Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you who eats with Me will betray Me.”
    Get that, more correct:
    ".... Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you who has sat down with Me will betray Me.”

    Where does it say, Jesus ate or drank? Nowhere!
     
    #6 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Nov 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2008
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    Now "14:1", dear Ed Sutton, which you never quoted, but referred to, "After two days was the Feast Day (Sabbath) of the Passover that of Unleavened Bread Feast ..." Nisan 13.

    Now Mark 14:12 also exists, you know as well as I do, which refers to the day directly after this one of verse 1, upon which the Last Supper was eaten, Nisan 14, and one day before the Passover Feast Sabbath of Unleavened bread eaten.

    Therefore you have two indications to the sequence of the days involved before the Feast Sabbath on which day in its fore-part and evening of night, the Passover-Meal would have been eaten as the climax of the Feast of the Passover's eight days of duration, Nisan 15.

    You agree Nisan 15 was Passover's Sabbath of Unleavened Bread Feast - you have told us before - that it was the Friday.

    Now how on earth do you get the Last Supper on the day _of_ the Feast Sabbath, Friday, during its beginning, the evening of 'our' Thursday night?
     
    #7 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Nov 14, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 14, 2008
  8. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,169
    Likes Received:
    0
    Also the discription of the meal resembles that of a Sader. "he who dips his bread with me" dips it in the bitter herbs. Sader. Passover - meal.
     
  9. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    It matters not what you say...as Ed pointed out, Scripture says it was. Case closed.
     
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    "The Scriptures say ...." Because Ed Sutton have spoken, it is Scripture for you, Webdog --- not for me.

    You want a Passover meal eaten before the Passover sacrifice was slaughtered;

    You want the Passover Meal of the Passover-sabbath, Nisan 15, on Passover-Preparation, Nisan 14;

    You want "two days before Passover Feast-(sabbath)", one day before Passover Feast-sabbath;

    You want Jesus say He ate while He said, Prepare so that I MAY eat.

    You want a Passover Meal of a blood sacrifice that is the Seder ('Sader' I see Thinkingstuff spells it), but that consisted of BREAD and nothing more. ("Dips his hand with me in the bowl" is what the Greek text says; it mentions no real sauce or whatever; it is a mere token of familiarity.)

    You want a Passover Meal with wine - which no Passover Seder for the life of you would have had on the table or 'prepared'.

    You want a Passover Meal of ordinary bread, 'arton' and not of 'adzymos-bread'.

    You want a Passover Meal which the Jews had not partaken of, because they the next morning, would not enter into Pilate's house, "that they (still) might eat the Passover"!

    You want a Passover Meal the Jews obviously must have eaten the night after, after sunset and before they went into Pilate's house without scrupels about the Passover Meal.

    That is your 'Scripture', Webdog; you may have it for yourself; just don't spoon-feed innocent enquirers with what is just _your_ 'Scripture' and not that of the Written Word.

    You want a Passover Meal Jesus had eaten while it is not written once that He ate it, but that He ate the Passover in that He was 'our Passover Lamb' - slain Himself before He could be 'partaken of' by faith.
     
  11. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,169
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've celebrated Seder and there is wine. And Jesus had this seder on Shabbat. Which makes sence to me and no the scriptures don't say what Jesus and Judas dipped into but I do know that the Seder bread is dipped into bitter herbs in water. Since the writer assumes that we know what he's talking about I can assume it was a normal Jewish custom at the time.
     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    "16 So His disciples went out, and came into the city, and found it just as He had said to them; and they prepared the Passover."

    What did Jesus and his disciples do after that they have found the place 'prepared already'? "They prepared for ('for' - correct Eng. for Gr. Acc.) the Passover":- They 'kept' or 'observed', Passover's "Preparation" - its preparation-meal; not the actual 'Passover's-Meal'! That is plain, Scriptures, as it is written. No fancy stuff; no stuff mine!
     
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    GE:
    Having celebrated Seder you naturally also would have celebrated Bedikat Chamets, and should know the differences between the two feast-meals. You should know that Seder has grape juice; no wine. Bedikat Chamets has wine; no grape juice. Seder has meat - the passover's sacrifice's meat; Bedikat Chamets does not have meat of sacrifice.

    In any case, grape juice or any drink is no constituent of the original, Scriptural, OT 'Passover'. 'The Jews' much later only, introduced drinking of whatever fluid into the Passover Meal.

    Originally too, the Passover-Meal was simply called "The Passover" Gr., 'to pascha' - a Hebraism. Even the name, 'Seder' cannot truely said to be 'Passover'!

    The Reformed Churches use real wine for the Lord's Supper. Unfortunately the Reformed Churches have made two 'ceremonies' of the Lord's Supper of the Gospels. They made of the one "Holy Communion" a "Preparation Service" on the evening of the night before, and the Celebration of the Lord's Supper itself next day.

    The Jew are a wonderful people; but even they, cannot be trusted in matters of Christian religion.


     
    #13 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Nov 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2008
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    Thinkingstuff:
    "the Seder bread is dipped into bitter herbs in water. Since the writer assumes that we know what he's talking about I can assume it was a normal Jewish custom at the time."

    GE:
    The expression, "he who dips his hand into the bowl with me" should not be assumed "a normal Jewish custom at the time" for the Seder; but at the time was a normal Jewish idiom of the vernacular for familiarity: ''He who knows me well", who even may dwell with me; who intimately, knows me.
     
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    Bring all the factors into play; not only one doubtful one, Passover=Seder! Overmore, Seder is not Lord's Supper!

    Lord's Supper is so called (by Paul and all Christians after him) for being The Lord's Supper by Title and right of His Lordship earned and obtained and received by Triumph of Visctory -- Resurrection from the dead!

    It's purely Christian.

    It's NEW, and covenanted, New!

    The Lord's Supper was nor is the Passover!
     
  16. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Does that include when they recorded Scripture?

    Most of the writers of Scripture surely were Jewish, including every writer of the NT, likely apart from Luke, it would seem.

    Sorry, Gerhard Ebersoehn. You simply are searching for a distinction that is not there, and that Scripture does not support, as the Scriptures I quoted previously would seem to suggest.

    And as to how Jesus could partake of the Passover meal (thus fulfilling Scripture) and yet be crucified (as Our Passover) on the same Jewish day (again fulfilling the Scripture), I have already made multiple posts on the BB, regarding the fulfilling of the phrase, found in the OT of "between the evenings," and how that was when the Passover Lamb was to be slain, and the fact that that phrase did not even seem to have any import attached to it, until our Lord was in fact, 'killed' on 14 Nisan (or Abib), just as the Scripture demands. For over 1500 years, this merely seemed to be an oddity of wording, to all except the LORD, who gave this prophetic command.

    Look 'em up, in the 'Search/Advanced Search' mode on the BB, for unfortunately, I do not have the time to do so, and give the links, at the moment.

    Ed
     
    #16 EdSutton, Nov 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2008
  17. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,162
    Likes Received:
    368
    GE - Can I ask about why you have such an obsession with Jesus' last hours on earth? What about the rest of His life and after His death and resurrection? His life wasn't just about those last hours.
     
  18. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    8,169
    Likes Received:
    0
    We actually had manischewitz wine which was drunk at different intervals during the seder following of the passover Haggadah.
    No grape juice. Wine. Sweet new wine. They didn't have any skins so I couldn't tell you if it was new wine in old skins. :laugh:

    Bedikat Chametz is the night before looking for leaven or yeast in the house by candle light. I don't think this is what Jesus was doing.
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    GE:
    Ah, Annsni, this is the most wonderful question ever put to me, and in all Christian sincerity, thank you for it!

    For His whole life in truth, the whole rest of His Life, since eternity before and for eternity after, and since He was born a human baby and until He died God in the body of mortal flesh, was all about those last hours and last three days and three nights according to the Scriptures! His eternal existence is unthinkable without these moments and events. Jesus' own words at the table confirm! His 'Intercessory prayer' of John 17, show!

    Because here and now the eternal Covenant of Grace really 'kicked in', to be established once for ever in the Resurrection of the Crucified Christ of God. Here, like, or, nowhere else, is God in His Glory revealed: as, He, is! If not for these hours God would be as if even He, were transitory and of but of a moment's existence and power. Which exactly these hours were: The Eternal Life of God in one event of God who so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, both into death and in resurrection from the dead.

    I fail to express the reality or truth of it in words. But I am sure you get the drift of what I'm trying to say.
     
    #19 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Nov 20, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2008
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,869
    Likes Received:
    3
    GE:
    Ag, Ed Sutoon, you have said nothing of the smallest worth. You have become the Scriptures unto yourself. I cannot but answer you with disdain. If not Ed Sutton were the inventor, all lightbulbs give darkness.
     

Share This Page

Loading...