The Pope's Decree

Don't you realize the difference between the Biblical criteria and the Catholic Criteria?

Where is the requirement for the salvation that the believer should be under the Pope?
We don't claim anything to do but to believe, and the Believers must have certain phenomena common to the believers, confessing the sins and the change of the life, when we hear the testimony, we can discern. As Martin Luther experienced before he did in 1517 ( maybe in 1515 when he read Rome 1:17)

Do you believe that Lutherans have no Salvation, which is virtually claimed by Mr. Ratzinger( though he said Defective churches) ?

COE means Church of England.

 

This is nothing new but the continuation of the same thing.


Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quadem, 1854


it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood. Truths of this sort should be deeply fixed in the minds of the faithful, lest they be corrupted by false doctrines, whose object is to foster an indifference toward religion, which we see spreading widely and growing strong for the destruction of souls."


http://www.geocities.com/orthopapism/eens_papal.html


Despite the ridiculous aspects of this, I expect the Pontiff will continue to strengthen the position of RCC, and under the headship of Pope, and all the religions of the world will be united against the True Christian Believers who will remain as the negligible minority in human eyes.

However, I am very much confident that the True Believers in Jesus Christ will win over the Beast and the Harlot so that those winners may participate in the Kingdom of New Millennium under the Leadership of Jesus Christ.

 

COE = Church of England [smacking forehead] Doh! I knew that.

And yes I can discern between the biblical criteria and the RCC criteria, that is why I said I see the similarities.
You say that you don't do anything but believe and then you say that you have accept, you have to know the exact moment and details of first believing and then you have to demonstrate a change in the level of holiness in your life. That is a conflicted message.

 

I grew up in the RCC, and this statement by this pope reminds me of how wonderful my salvation is in Christ, by grace and through my faith alone.
This makes my heart hurt even more for these people, especially since my family is still caught up in this mess.
This just means i/we need to stand more firmly on the truth of God's word, pray more and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ that is the power for salvation!

 

There is no conflict in my statements, and all procedures of hearing is of the Biblical discernment. Truly being born again means the change of the life, and there must be a starting point in such change.
We know Martin Luther was born again, though he showed the much problem with Anti-Semitism and Mariatology.
John Wesley was born again on May 24, 1738, Pascal was saved on Nov 23, 1654, and Harry Ironside, Erich Sauer, George Muller, and many more as well.
I am very sure some posters on this board are saved and have the clear testimony of Salvation though I have differed from them on many issues.

Likewise, we don't limit the salvation to a certain group of people, or to our group of Plymouth Brethren, or to the people of certain man-developed doctrines, but our assessment is done after hearing the actual testimony about how Holy Spirit started to dwell in them. But what RCC does is different, they said there is no Salvation outside the RCC, and the recent statement by the pope is the reaffirmation of the past decrees though he just said about the Defective Churches. If you do not discern the difference between Biblical Discernment and the Catholic criteria, then you are far away to preach the Gospel to the unsaved because you don't know whether they are saved or not, you don't know what is the difference between the saved and the unsaved, except the facts of church-goers or non-church-goers.
In that case a Blindman is guiding another blindmen and blindwomen. I wish it should not be your case.

You didn't answer my question, do you agree that Lutheran is defective church as Pope said?

 

Talking of Lutherans (and sorry to bring this up Chemnitz as I know you're not a fan of this!), I find it hard to believe that this is the same man who as Cardinal Ratzinger laboured long and hard to bring about the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification with (some of) the Lutherans.

 

This was what I wondered too, because he is well known to be the man of doctrines and theology which must include the Ecumenicalism, though his view was different from the Evangelists'

However, I take this as a momentum to strengthen the position of RCC and Papacy eventually after retreating somehow, though some people may depart from RC further.

 

No biggie. My church had this fight with the RCC nearly 500 year ago. I guess we're going to have to continue to agree to disagree.

 

Have you forgotten what the Forefathers said?

Even including Martin Luther, Spurgeon, many more stated their belief that Pope is the anti-Christ and the RCC is the Whore and Great Harlot in Rev 17.
Though The Anti-Christ has not come yet, they are making good preparations very fast while the Christians are lazy and lukewarm, so that RCC may pave the way for the Beast and the Harlot.
Satan is not lazy, he is much more diligent than the Christians of today.
Satan works very hard even today and tomorrow.

Read here:

The Roman Catholic church has always 'claimed' to be walking "with" Christ. Just as Judas "kissed" Christ, so has Rome "kissed" His Truth. They "softly and gently" send their wolves forward wearing the clothing of a little lamb so as to gentle draw the masses away from Christ. They betray Christ as soft as the kiss of JUDAS!

Arnulf Bishop of Orleans (Roman Catholic)
"deplored the roman popes as "monsters of guilt" and declared in a council called by the King of France in 991ad that the pontiff, clad in purple and gold, was, "Antichrist, sitting in the temple of God, and showing himself as God" -Phillip Schaff, History of the Christian church, 8 vols., reprint of the 3d (1910)ed. (Grand Rapids Mich.: Wm. B Eerdmans Publishing Co., n.d.)

Eberhard II, archbishop of Salzburg (Roman Catholic)
"stated at a synod of bishops held at Regensburg in 1240 (some scholars say 1241) that the people of his day were "accustomed" to calling the pope antichrist." -LeRoy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith of our Fathers, 4 vols. (Wash DC: Review and Herald publishing assc, 1950-1954)

John Wycliffe
"When the western church was divided for about 40 years between two rival popes, one in Rome and the other in Avigon, France, each pope called the other pope antichrist - and John Wycliffe is reputed to have regarded them as both being right: "two halves of Antichrist, making up the perfect Man of Sin between them." -Ibid

Martin Luther (Lutheran)
"We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist...personally I declare that I owe the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520) Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 2., pg. 121 by Froom. (In response to a papal bull [official decree]): "I despise and attack it, as impious, false... It is Christ Himself who is condemned therein... I rejoice in having to bear such ills for the best of causes. Already I feel greater liberty in my heart; for at last I know that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself." --D'Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9.

Cotton Mather (Congregational Theologian)
"The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them." Taken from The Fall of Babylon by Cotton Mather in Froom's book, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 3, pg. 113.

John Wesley (Methodist)
Speaking of the Papacy he said, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone." Taken from Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms by John Wesley, pg. 110.

Thomas Cranmer (Anglican)
"Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons." (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.) Taken from Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7.

Roger Williams (First Baptist Pastor in America)
He spoke of the Pope as "the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vassals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to change times and laws; but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2)." Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52.

1689 London Baptist Confession
Chapter 26: Of the Church. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the church, in whom, by the appointment of the Father, all power for the calling, institution, order or government of the church, is invested in a supreme and sovereign manner; neither can the Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof, but is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself in the church against Christ, and all that is called God; whom the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. ( Colossians 1:18; Matthew 28:18-20; Ephesians 4:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:2-9 )

John Knox (Scotch Presbyterian)
Knox wrote to abolish "that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church" and that the pope should be recognized as "the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks." Taken from The Zurich Letters, pg. 199 by John Knox.
John Calvin (Presbyterian)
"Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt... I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." Taken from Institutes by John Calvin.

Presbyterian Church (Year 2000)
Therefore: The South Atlantic Presbytery of the Bible Presbyterian Church, at its spring meeting in the Bible Presbyterian Church of Charlotte, N.C., March 25, 2000, resolves and warns the Roman Catholic Church, Mystery, Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots and abominations of the earth (Rev 17:5) constitutes the greatest threat to fundamental Christianity in the 21st century! The Roman Catholic Church has long since forsaken the Bible alone, Grace alone, faith alone, and Christ alone. There should be no confraternity with this apostate church in ministerial associations, community easter sunrise services, Thanksgiving services, mass evangelism or common social endeavors. We admonish devout believers to lovingly and firmly win Roman Catholics to Christ and urge new converts to obey Rev. 18:4, "And I heard a another voice from heaven, saying, come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sin, and that ye receive not her plagues."


http://www.remnantofgod.org/4fathers.htm

 

Good post sir.

The RC model is "magic sacrament" and "priests with the power to confect God" as the SOURCE of the NEW Covenant for real Christians in a real Christian church.

I suppose "some" on this board could try to cover that with smoke and mirrors as if "well everybody's doing it" -- but not all will see it that way as you have noted sir.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Adam Clark argued that Luther and all the reformers that lead us out of the dark ages were "the good guys" and that the dark-ages persecution of the saints "was predicted by God" in Daniel 7...

I know we don't agree on this Eliyahu -- but it is something to think about.

 

Martin Luther cannot be a good guy unless we think about OSAS.

He did a great, unprecedented work in 1517. Without the assistance of HS, he could have never done that. He deserves many rewards for it alone.
But his strong Anti-Semitism and Mary Worship ( or respect or honor, whatever) must be condemned too.
His instigation of Anti-semitism may be enough to revoke the Salvation if you deny OSAS.

 

Question: Are you saying that Luther "became" anti-semitic AFTER protesting against the errors of the RCC?

Recall that as a member-in-good-standing WITH the RCC Luther would have had to have agreed to the Lateran IV "EXTERMINATION" of Jews.

As Adam Clarke points out the violence, error and persecution of the saints done by the RCC during the many centuries of the dark ages FAR SURPASSES all that came before it.

In Matt 23 Christ said of the Jews that ALL the blood slain on earth from Seth to the present was being "inherited" by God's chosen people who were choosing in the full light of day to follow the SAME violent persecution of the saints as had been done before them. The SAME inherited guilt then would have had to apply to the RCC.

 

Actually there is great conflict, in fact, except for wording they were virtually identical to the requirements of Rome minus submission to the Pope.

You require knowledge of the exact moment of conversion while for you it is an ephemeral feeling it is for the RCC the moment of Baptism. You require acceptance of Jesus while the RCC requires acceptance also but they call it confirmation. You require an account of the life before conversion and so do the RCC'ers they just call it confession. You require a testimony of how they will deal with sin so do the RCC'ers they call it penance.

You say that you believe in by grace alone through faith alone and then you require all of these human works for them to be considered saved. It is an inconsistant teaching at best. The biblical model is that which is given in the Mandate of Christ, that disciples are made by the Holy Spirit acting through Baptism and teaching. This you do not say, instead you give a list of requirements much like the RCC does. In some ways in your attempt to distance yourself from the teachings RCC you have made yourself into a Popeless rcc.

Actually you are not as different as you might think. You both discern salvation on the basis of a theological construct. While you do not have a theological construct built around a physical institution you do have one built around physical acts and theological ideals.

I didn't answer your question because I thought it was self evident what I would think, my mistake.

Short history lesson because my moniker is a dead give away of what I think of the Pope's proclamation.

Martin Chemnitz, also known as the Second Martin, rose to prominance as a theologian shortly after the passing of Martin Luther. He is credited as being the most instrumental person in holding the Lutherans together during the persecution inflicted on the German people after Emporer Charles invasion of Germany to reinstate Catholicism. During this time many errors were creeping into the teachings of various Lutheran ministers and teachers, so he and a small group of theologians brought together the various parties and examined the teachings in detail in order to settle the question of orthodoxy. This work culminated in the formation of the Formula of Concord, which is regarded by orthodox Lutherans as one of the most important theological documents ever written by man.

Martin Chemnitz also played another major role in the history of the Lutheran Church. During the Council of Trent, he served as one of our observers of the proceedings. After which he wrote a four volume examination of the council in which he condemns the RCC for the continuation and formalization of its errors, including the formalized doctrine of no salvation outside of the papacy.

So to answer your question, I do not believe we are defective church. In fact, I consider all denominations outside of the confessional Lutheran denominations (thus excluding the ELCA and its cronies) to be heterodox at best.

 

Such anti-semitism must have been lurking in the mind of Luther before his conversion. No one was innocent before being born again! I hope you admit that! Therefore any wrong or ridiculous belief before the salvation means almost nothing.
Now the problem is that Luther issued such extremely anti-semitic statement in 1543, 4 years before his death, almost 30 years after his conversion. Let's see some of his comments:

Someone outlined the excerpts from the lengthy documents like this:

“The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows, seven times higher than ordinary thieves.”

“We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them.”

“The blind Jews are truly stupid fools.”

“Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people.”

“…eject them forever from this country.”

“They are nothing but thieves and robbers.”

“What then shall we do with this damned, rejected race of Jews?”

“Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews.”

“They are the real liars and bloodhounds.”

“We are at fault for not slaying them.”

“I shall give you my sincere advice: first to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever see a stone or a cinder of them.”

“Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed.”

“Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews.”

“Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, for them to work, and deal harshly with them.”

“If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs.”

“If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the river Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words, ‘I baptize thee in the name of Abraham.’”

Most of those quotes came from The Jews and Their Lies (1543). Perhaps he said those things because he believed like this:

"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world. As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness"

"No sin can harm me"

Luther was a Marian Idolater:

"Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase, 'the Mother of God'. No one can say anything greater of her or to her, though he had as many tongues as there are leaves on the trees . . ."

"Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother." (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).

"Our prayer should include the Mother of God . . . What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: 'Hail Mary, full of Grace, The Lord is with Thee, Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!’ You see that these words are not concerned with prayer but purely with giving praise and honour. We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her…”(Personal Prayer Book, 1522).


http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

We have some books about this in the city public library which amazed many believers.

If anyone had any violent ideas before the conversion, normally they change such views after the conversion, but strangely Martin Luther didn't do it! Of course one may excuse the situation and the environment at that time.

I have admitted the great contribution by Luther and liked him but have had difficulties in compromising and reconciling 2 aspects of his

 

Without wishing to excuse ML too much, it should be pointed out that pretty much all Christians were anti-Semitic at that time.

 

I wouldn't say he was anti-semetic per say. It is more that he was frustrated and angered by their blatant rejection of the Gospel coupled with the prostelyzing of German youth and bilking of the local economy. Luther would have been horrified by what Hilter and his ilk did. People read this later writing of Luther and forget that he earlier had encouraged the German people to treat the Jewish people kindly because it is through them that God gave us the savior.

 

It's amazing that you can convert every bit of the spiritual discernment into the physical procedues. Physical water cannot change the minds of the people.

Jeremiah 2:22
For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.

We are supposed to accept the truly born again believers only, to avoid the false, fake believers, and that is done by the hearing.

You don't understand the spiritual discernments, maybe because you never had such spiritual experience. But the truly born again people on this board, I am very sure, have the experience of salvation. It doesn't take many years, or many days, or many hours for the Holy Spirit to enter into the minds of the people. It is done in a second, but some people may not know when it happened to themselves, and they may recall it some years later, or may not remember the exact timing, but there is a moment when the Holy spirit enters into a person and starts to change the life of the receiver. Only the people who have this actual experience understand my statement. Sorry to say that you may not be one of them, sadly, because you don't understand what I am talking about the spiritual experiences.

As for Luther, you must find far more serious anti-semitism. Your exclusion of other denominations sounds the same as the Popish . But my statement already admitted there are plenty of salvation in other denominations such as Calvary Baptists, Bible Baptists, Independent Baptists, Menonites, Moravian, Wesleyan, and some Presbyterian, even including Lutherans and SBC, not including the fake Christians who have never had the spiritual experience of accepting the Holy Spirit. We don't count the human decision-making as the acceptance of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is not created by human beings. We cannot make or create the Holy Spirit in our minds. God is real and the Holy Spirit is a living person and He enters into the person who is contrite and broken hearted and HS has the intentions and willingness different from our own.
You cannot understand what I am saying because the Holy Spirit doesn't dwell in you sadly.

 

"Motes and beams", anyone?

I wonder how God feels about you usurping His role, Eliyahu...

 

I just love being told I am not saved because I don't subscribe to the idea of mistaking that bean burritto that I ate at Taco Bell for the Holy Spirit moving in me theory. A lot of people are going to be surprised when they see me dancing at the feet of Jesus.