The Post-Tribulation Gathering

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Truth Files, Sep 16, 2010.

  1. Truth Files

    Truth Files
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    Matthew
    24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    The Lord will move upon the earth without warning at the onset of His coming hour [time] of trial for the purpose of judging an unbelieving world of intransigence. [Revelation 16:15]

    He is the one who removes the seals of the scroll symbolizing His pending judgments which He will personally send upon the earth during the period. [Revelation 5:1-10; 6:1-17]

    His initial presence will be invisible and He will not be seen by the world until just after His time of trial lasting 2,550 days is completed. {Matthew 24:29-31]

    His first action at His visible appearing at the end of the tribulation period will be to gather all humans who are still living on the earth to Jerusalem. [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

    These will include the elect of Israel and all Gentiles of the nations who survive the tribulation period. This gathering will be of the surviving mortals of the period.

    This gathering is not a resurrection to immortality as the pre-tribulation gathering of the church will be .... today's church will already be immortalized and dwelling in heaven [those who dwell in heaven] with the Lord [Revelation 4; 5; 7; 11; 12; 13; 19; and 20 (those on thrones)]

    Some will repent and become believers during the tribulation period and those who die physically [martyred for their faith] will be resurrected at the end of the same period. They will be added to the pre-tribulation church and will rule with the Lord over His millennial kingdom of mortals for 1,000 years. [Revelation 6:9-11; 14:13; 20:4 (those beheaded)]

    The spirits of all others of the human dead [unbelievers/tares] who have existed since the beginning of human creation will remain sleeping in death until the end of the 1,000 years. They will then face judgment and none of them will be found recorded in the Lord's book of life. [Revelation 20:11-15]

    The Lord said that His action to bring His coming hour of trial would be like the days of Noah when all of humanity was taken in judgment [lost their lives] except for Noah and his family who were left to enter a post flood world. [Matthew 24:37-39]

    Similar conditions will exist at the end of this present age and many humans will lose their lives and will be lost forever during the tribulation period. Others will be left and physically alive when He appears visibly to establish his earthly kingdom.

    Those "taken" will be those who lose their physical lives in judgment during the tribulation just as those did who experienced the flood. The effects and intensity of the tribulation period will kill many and leave others who will survive. [Matthew 24:36-42]

    Those mortals who survive and are "left" will include believers and non-believers and these will require separation in order for the Lord to determine who will be allowed to enter and populate His post-tribulation kingdom of mortals on the earth.

    The elect "My brethren" [national Israel] will include the 144,000 sealed at the beginning of the coming judgment and an additional believing remnant part of national Israel. [Matthew 24:29-31]

    The "sheep" of the nations gathered will be all of those found believing that survive the tribulation period. The "goats" will be all non-believers left from the nations on the earth who survive the tribulation period. [Matthew 25:31-46]

    The Lord will say to the sheep that when He was in need during the tribulation they were accommodating to those needs for food, shelter, and protection. They respond that they were not aware of accommodating Him for these things. [Matthew 25:31-46]

    He will then state that since they did it for His "brethren" [the elect.......the believing Israelites], that it was the same as doing it for Him and He will allow them to enter His kingdom.

    He will then turn to the unbelieving goats and say that when He was in need they did not accommodate Him, and they will respond that they were not aware that they had not done this.

    Then He will state that since they did not do these things for His "brethren" [the elect....the believing Israelites] that they did not accommodate Him.

    Because of this they will not be allowed into His kingdom and He will reject them to face final judgment and eternal punishment.

    Satan will be captured and confined to the abyss during the 1,000 year earthly kingdom of the Lord so that he cannot influence and deceive the mortal nations that will exist during the period. [Revelation 20:1-3]

    He will be then released from the abyss at the end of the 1,000 years and will go forth to deceive the nations again. [Revelation 20:7-10]

    Satan [gog] will succeed in creating another human rebellion among the nations [symbolically .... Magog] against the Lord which will be quickly terminated. Satan will then be destroyed in the lake of fire. [Revelation 20:9-10]

    All of the spirits of the unbelieving human dead [tares] will then be gathered, judged, and destroyed in His lake fire

    The Lord will renovate the earth and the entire universe with fire. All past, present, and future humans who are recorded in His book of life [the wheat] will live forever in His new and perfect universe. [Revelation 21]

    The things He has prepared for the believer are so incredible that we cannot even begin to imagine them with our finite minds.
     
  2. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    Is the above meant as an explanation of your view or an argument for it?
     
  3. matt wade

    matt wade
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  4. William Price

    William Price
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    I have come to this conclusion about eschatology, that when we see jesus face to face, we will understand everything about His 2nd Coming. Until then, I have hope in that day, but work in Christ until He comes. I refuse to make timing a salvation issue anymore, except to say that we must work in Him as if we are going to see Him 5 minutes from now.

    JMHO
     
  5. lastday

    lastday
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    Lastday

    Friends,
    In opening the thread on the "Post-Tribulation gathering", Truth Files jumps
    from Matt.24:31 to Matt.25:31 as if those whom Jesus "gathers from earth and whom the angels gather out of the 4 winds" are not the
    only Believers who will enter the Millennial Kingdom to rule over the nations" per Rev.2:25-26.

    Truth sees whole nations (the sheep nations) inheriting the Kingdom based on
    their proper treatment of the Jews during the great tribulation. He sees whole unsaved (Goat) nations being sent to Hell because of
    their mistreatment of the Jews during the great tribulation.

    This means the condition for whole nations entering the Kingdom is the kind of treatment given to the Jews by entire nations. God's
    wrath destroys all those who refuse to believe in Christ before He comes OR who fail to beg for mercy during the Hour of Trial that
    comes on "all the inhabitants (nations as well as individuals) on all the face of all the earth that comes suddenly" and they all
    see Him coming in the clouds. Their destiny is settled within the Hour of Trial!

    Christ will "sit on His throne" for 1000 years between Matt.24:31 and 25:31!
    The righteous VS unrighteous Treatment by the sheep and/or goat nations, i.e., the Treatment upon which their "eternal inheritance"
    in the earthly Kingdom OR being sent to an eternal Hell must be determined...is their kind of treatment of the Jews who rule over
    these nations for the 1000 years of Christ's earthly rule!!

    The Goat Nations will be non-existent as of the Great Tribulation. Salvation
    is an individual matter before Christ sits on His throne a thousand years.
    But during that Millennium, whole nations will outwardly worship the Lord in order to "receive rain for the crops". Their true character
    will be revealed when the "Goat Nations" are deceived by Satan and attack
    the Saints in Jerusalem; but they will be sent enmasse to Hell for their mistreatment of the Jews!!!
    Mel
    Two Periods of Mideast Peace Occur before Antichrist takes Peace from Earth
     
    #5 lastday, Sep 16, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 16, 2010
  6. Truth Files

    Truth Files
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    "Is the above meant as an explanation of your view or an argument for it?"

    An explanation of how I understand the gatherings at the end of the tribulation period presented in scripture
     
  7. Truth Files

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    "Are we going to see you repost every single thing that you've posted at"

    Most likely

    All of my discoveries and understanding of the prophetic scriptures .... about 30 + years in the process

    No need to re-write

    So what reasonable questions might you have?

    Or maybe you would like to post your views on the subject of this post
     
  8. Truth Files

    Truth Files
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    "In opening the thread on the "Post-Tribulation gathering", Truth Files jumps
    from Matt.24:31 to Matt.25:31 as if those whom Jesus "gathers from earth and whom the angels gather out of the 4 winds" are not the
    only Believers who will enter the Millennial Kingdom to rule over the nations" per Rev.2:25-26."

    So tell me Mel .... who are the believing surviving mortals that will enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth?
     
  9. lastday

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    Lastday

    Truth Files,
    That's the best question you have asked me since we began our discussions.
    I wrote:
    You Respond:
    Jesus supplied the answer in regard to what occurs on the "Day of His Apocalypse"...the only time He employed this word during His time on earth!
    Two will be working in the field or at the mill on the Day He is Revealed from
    heaven in power and great glory..."one will be taken and one will be left"!! One of every Twosome will be left and "kept alive...if he does not seek to
    save himself...but begs for mercy"!!!

    Here Luke 17:30-33 and Luke 21:36 reveal what happens to those who beg for mercy! They are kept alive to enter the Kingdom!! Five Million Jews and
    up to 400 Million Muslims of these nations may survive to the End
    if just a third come through the fires of tribulation!!! Zech.13:8-9.
    Mel
    Two Periods of Mideast Peace Occur before Antichrist takes Peace from Earth
     
  10. Truth Files

    Truth Files
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    Your answer falls short of the question I asked you Mel and really is not an answer at all .... I believe that you are either trying to avoid it [why?], or you just don't understand

    You are following a flawed formula for rendering end time exegesis [Chiasmos, Inverse Parallel Structure, Sets Order of Lastday Events]

    Here is you answer to my question:

    "Two will be working in the field or at the mill on the Day He is Revealed from
    heaven in power and great glory..."one will be taken and one will be left"!! One of every Twosome will be left and "kept alive...if he does not seek to
    save himself...but begs for mercy"!!!"

    Those who are taken are killed in the judgment of the tribulation period of 2550 days, and those left are the mortal survivors of the period .... and these will be separated by the Lord just after .... sheep and goats

    Who do you think will "beg" for mercy as you say .... the sheep, or the goats .... or both?

    .... and are these mortals or immortals who survive the tribulation period?

    What is the significance of your comment "but begs for mercy" [which you insert] as related to my question?

    I will ask you the question again

    Who are those mortal believers who will enter and populate His millennial kingdom on the earth?

    He will not let mortal unbelievers enter the kingdom [Matthew 25:41-46] .... do you believe this truth, or not?

    If your idea that these gatherings after the tribulation period are resurrections of believers then there will be no believers left on the earth to enter and populate His millennial kingdom [the Lord will not leave true believers of His church [of both Jew and gentile] to experience His coming time of trial and judgment against an unbelieving world [1Thessalonians 5:1-9; Revelation 3:10]

    .... this is one of the many reasons why post-tribulational thinking is flawed

    You sight examples of the remnant part of beliving Israelites, those who flee into the wilderness and those who are brought thought the tribulation period [fire] by the Lord ..... these are all believers Mel .... so why are they not resurrected?

    The answer is obvious .... the gatherings noted in Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 31-46 at the end of the tribulation period are not resurrections

    Explain the following passages of scripture regarding the "elect" of believing Israelites gathered just after the tribulation of those days: [Isaiah 11:11-12; 27:13; Matthew 24:29-31]

    Now tell me about these related scriptures: [Ezekiel 20:33-38; 36:6-11; Micah 4:1-3; 5:5-7; Zechariah 13:8-9; 14:4-5; 14:16-21; Matthew 24: 15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14; 20:1-3] .... are these humans noted mortals or immortals?

    If the gatherings of Matthew 24:29-31 and Matthew 25:31-46 are not resurrections, which they are not, then where in scripture do you find the record and timing of resurrection of the believing church?

    And do you think that the Lord's discourse given in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 regarding the coming time of the end of this present age is about the church of today, or national Israel at the time of the end of this present age?

    It seems as thought you have the Lord's coming judgment against an unbelieving world occuring in one 24 day, but just before which He will gather and resurrect all true believers to immortality .... so I will ask you again

    Who are the believing survivors, the "elect" of Israel and the sheep of the nations, who will enter and populate [procreate] His millennial kingdom on the earth if all believers have been resurrected as you say?

    And on what basis does the Lord make the separation between the sheep and the goats of the nations that are left .... and why?
     
    #10 Truth Files, Sep 17, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2010
  11. lastday

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    Lastday

    Truth Files,
    Your inability to understand my answer: most incredible; yet explainable!
    Your mindset rebells against all whom Jesus "rescues" too late to become part of the Lamb's Bride...but not too late to enter and populate the Kingdom!!
    You need to "think outside the box" in which your mindset rejects what Jesus said!!!

    Exhibit #One Here you confuse the Elect with the Sheep Nations:
    The gathering of Matt.24:29-31 is part of the gathering of Mark 13:24-27...
    Those "gathered" are the Elect whom Jesus raises up from earth and angels
    escort on the four winds to meet Jesus at the "Synagogue in the Sky". They
    alone will be "gathered together above" while the Jewish "Remnant stand erect, look up and beg to escape all these things and to stand before the Son of Man."
    This Truth cannot be found in your List of Files!

    Exhibit #Two: My Answer to the ? your mindset Totally Rejects:
    Exhibit #Three: Here you miss the TIME: One Day; not 2550 Days:
    The DAY on which those who are "Taken or Left" is the "DAY of
    Christ's APOCALYPSE" (Luke 17:30)...the Day on which the Elect will be
    caught up to meet the Lord while the Remnant (and up to 400 Million Muslims) "mourn and are begging to escape and stand before the Messiah"!

    Exhibit #Four: You completely miss the point of the Subjects rescued...those who are not among the Elect who will "endure to the End":
    You ask:
    These are not BELIEVERS whom Jesus "gathers together above to meet Him!
    They are the Jewish Remnant and anyone who "cries and begs for mercy"!!
    They beg for mercy during the Hour of Trial as the Elect meet the Lamb!!!

    Exhibit #Five: Here you confuse the Bride with Sheep Nations:
    You claim:
    The candidates for making up the Sheep Nations are those who "beg for mercy" and enter the Kingdom on earth in their mortal bodies!
    They will populate the earth for 1000 years...while all the Elect are immortal!! For you to claim that Believers who survive to the End must continue in their mortal state to bear children is a frontal assault to their faith and denies God's promise that "all those whom He has justified...He has also glorified"!!!

    Exhibit #Six: Here you correctly exempt Believers from the (literal) Hour of Trial but yet degrade and commit them to the life of mortals for 1000 years:
    You write:
    It's not BELIEVERS who are left to populate the earth for all 1000 years!
    Those who are "kept alive will mourn and beg for mercy" and remain mortals so as to populate the earth!! Your mindset is so rigid that it seems incapable of embracing these simple truths!!!

    Exhibit #Seven: You make the Hour of Trial refer to Believers escaping the great tribulation instead of strictly to Unbelievers AFTER great tribulation:
    You write:
    The Jewish Remnant remain "blinded" to the truth until Christ APPEARS!
    Those fleeing to the desert are not among those who "mourn and beg"!!
    The Remnant rescued on the Day or Wrath are not among the 144000!!!

    Exhibit #Eight: You contradict the word of the Lord in John 6:38-40:
    You write:
    Your exegesis
    of the Lord's words that "He will gather the Elect from earth and send the angels to gather them after the great tribulation" contradicts His four-fold repeated promise that:
    "He will raise up all Believers on the Last Day"!
    It is untenable for you to deny that this gathering requires their resurrection!!
    Your view is screwed up by thinking the Tribulation is for the Jews after the
    Church is Raptured...but that's why you can't see the important truths:
    You write:
    The answer to that question is most clearly revealed by Jesus and Paul:
    Jesus revealed to John: Our judgment and rewards occur at the 7th Trumpet!
    Jesus said FOUR TIMES that He will "raise up every Believer on the Last Day"!!
    "God brings the souls of ALL the dead in Christ WITH Jesus at His Presence"!!!

    Since the Martyrs of Revelation 20:4-5 take part in the First Resurrection AND
    they remain under the Altar until the last one is killed who must be killed AND
    they must come WITH Jesus at His Presence"...why do you strain at knats
    and swallow your camels?
    The sheep and goat nations will be separated at the END of Christ's Millennial Reign! For the required condition to inherit the eternal Kingdom on earth
    is NOT FAITH; but the manner in which they treat the least of the Jews during His Millennial Reign!! "All men will know the Lord" during His Reign!!!
    I do commend you for the conclusion regarding my View: You conclude:
    However, you would be more accurate to realize that Believers will meet
    Jesus for the Wedding/Rewards at the Synagogue in the Sky! During that
    Hour of Trial 5 Million Jews "mourn" and at least 200 Million Muslims "beg
    for His mercy!! They wish to escape His wrath and stand in His Presence"!!!
    Mel
     
    #11 lastday, Sep 17, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2010
  12. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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  13. Truth Files

    Truth Files
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    "Your inability to understand my answer: most incredible;"

    You are a funny guy Mel .... but you can't defend your view just as I thought

    You try, but your exegesis theology is borrowed ..... and this is your problem, I know where you get it from and it is not from the scriptures, but another man's contrivance

    Any theology that attempts to build a doctrine for the purpose of predicting the dating of the Lord's second advent should be suspect of error and the investigation of potential self serving motives involved

    Many who have and do this attach a number of false leadings that can and do effect one's salvation

    Two examples would be the late William Miller and Ellen G. White of the SDA, and Harold Camping at the present time .... the list is a long one

    I would suggest that you try something different if you want to get back on track

    You never answer my question ..... you just simply go off on a tangent with smoke and mirrors nonsense based upon a pre-packaged extra-biblical theology that you selected to follow

    Let's drop the dialogue at this time .... not really good for any purpose

    Make certain you are ready for the Lord's sudden intervention if you happen to be alive at the time .... you also need to be ready at your death if it comes first
     
    #13 Truth Files, Sep 17, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2010

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