The Power of God's Word in Salvation - For Calvinists

Your thread title seems to say "Arminians do not read this" - but that is clearly not the intent here so - I am going to post on this.

You are 100% correct!

In fact Romans 10 SHOWS that the "sequence" is belief THEN salvation.

Christ said "I will DRAW ALL MANKIND UNTO ME" John 12:32 for Christ is the one that coming into the world "Enlightens EVERY one of mankind" John 1. So "yes" it is supernatural "enabling" but it is done to ALL mankind - without FIRST causing all mankind to be "born again"!!

God is "able" and as His Word says "God Does"!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob Ryan: Christ said "I will DRAW ALL MANKIND UNTO ME" John 12:32 for Christ is the one that coming into the world "Enlightens EVERY one of mankind" John 1. So "yes" it is supernatural "enabling" but it is done to ALL mankind - without FIRST causing all mankind to be "born again"!!

HP: In all due respect to the text, can we quote this verse in context, leaving out the first part? “If I be lifted up.” I do not see this verse supporting that all in actuality have the gospel presented to them. God is under no obligation to offer the gospel to any. He is under obligation, if He is to blame or praise men for their actions, to grant the necessary abilities to obey along with the knowledge of what is required to them, but is not under any obligation to offer them a pardon. I believe that many have lived, and some even are alive today, that have not heard the good news nor will ever hear the good news. Does not Scripture clearly state ‘Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” ?

God’s provision in salvation is sufficient for all, but His mercy in salvation is indeed selective. Not selective as the Calvinist might have us to believe, as in predestination of the elect and damned apart from man's will being involved, but still selective in the sense that only some will hear and have the opportunity to accept while others will simply be judged for their willing disobedience to the commands of God they intuitively understood.

All men have been enlightened to some degree as to what it is that God requires of them, but that is not to say that they have been enlightened as to the ‘gospel message.’

Salvation again is truly sufficient for all, and all, if they will hear, repent, believe, may come to a saving knowledge of Christ. For reasons not entirely understood by to me, God has placed upon us the responsibility of sharing the good news with the lost world. If we fail our responsibility in this, some will not hear that might have heard and responded if they would have been afforded that opportunity. We are commanded to go and share the good news, and that IF we lift up Christ, all men will be drawn (not saved) to Himself.

 

Speaking of John 12:32 and ALL MANKIND drawn to Christ --

True. Nothing about John 1 (Christ is the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERYONE of mankind) or John 12:32 ( I will draw ALL MANKIND to ME) or John 16 (The Spirit CONVICTS THE WORLD of sin AND righteousness AND judgment) that says "ALL get the full story of the Gospel"!

I would never claim such a thing.

Rather I claim the ALL mankind scope of Romans 10 for this promise as well as the ALL of John 1 and John 12.

God works on ALL even though ALL don't have a fully informed story to go along with the indwelling work of God.

God IS under obligation to be TRUE to His OWN WORD as it turns out! God says His word IS reliable - IS trustworthy and CAN NOT be broken!

you can believe it.

But NONE are alive nor have lived that were not DRAWN to God that were not ENLIGHTENED by Christ that were not CONVICTED by the Holy Spirit.

Does not Romans 10 show this clearly ALONG With these other texts?

In Romans 10 we see the basics of the ONE Gospel message that goes into all the World via nature.

Now the part everyone knows --

The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows

Clearly Paul is appealing (again) to nature's voice in declaring the truth of God - so that "they (the people - Jew and gentile) did hear" - fulfilling the
condition –

And using that Ps 19 context – Paul then continues…

and this - is in perfect agreement with the opening context of the book of Romans - chapter 1.

Clearly - they are without excuse because God did manifest himself as described in the text and still they refused the God that "draws all men unto him".

So although Paul points to the witness of God's creation in Ps 19 as proving that
Israel is "without excuse" and did have the opportunity to "believe" - he also points to the motive of jealousy as God's witness to non-Hebrew people results in salvation.

Again – Paul emphasis the Gospel message of Isaiah (the Gospel prophet) confirming Paul’s statement that the Gospel message was given and that men rejected it then as they do today.

Indeed - God's chosen race, royal priesthood, holy nation - seemed to be rebelling against the God that called them, that chose them - in spite of the witness we see proclaimed in the OT and in Psalms 19 regarding creation itself.

 

Whosoever Believes – is saved.

Romans 10

saved - salvation to those who believe. The fact that one who believes and is saved will continue to read and study and obey - does not abolish the fact of salvation just as stated above - at the time we believe.

Salvation comes to the one who confesses and believes. Then we go on to follow in the works of obedience – including water Baptism


In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
#1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
#2. This is a step toward God in righteousness
#3. Confess that you know believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!

By contrast the “expected” Calvinist sequence is
#1. Regenerated by God – forgiven, born-again “Alive and IN Christ”.
#2. Discover that God has saved you and that you are already born-again.
#3. Believe in the one that has put you in this saved state of existence.
#4. Confess that you are not only born-again and alive-in Christ, but NOW you also believe!

Notice that the “expected” Arminian sequence also appears in Acts 26 -

#1. Eyes opened by the preaching. Paul needs to go and be used by God to Open their eyes to truth.
#2. They need to CHOOSE to turn from darkness to light. (Christ is the one who coming into the world enlightens all mankind)
#3. And having turned – to be transferred FROM the dominion of Satan TO The dominion (Kingdom) of God. (Born again) Child of God.
#4. Having transitioned into God’s kingdom they are forgiven and saved.

 

Bob Ryan,

We are not to agree in depth as that makes for little discussion. (Just kidding!) I like by far the most of what I hear you saying in these last posts. I will pay a lot closer attention to your posts in the future. I would just say that I for one differentiate between having ‘received the gospel message’, and having’received knowledge of God and His law.’ All have received one but not the other, IMO as I read Scripture and understand it as of today. I am not bound to any creed so I can change my beliefs in the future as God grants me light. I am free indeed!

 

I agree with that. The specific Gospel message is rich in detail about God and the substitutionary atoning work of Christ. No question that many have not heard that message and never will. But that does not limit God from going directly to "all mankind" and drawing them, and even enlightening them at the level of conscience and nature with "inspired thoughts" directly communicated by His Holy Spirit.

Often we suppose that the mission to evangelize is because "God can't do it or won't do it". But really the reason we evangelize is that God gives us the SAME love for our neighbor as He has and the same love of the truth. And the MORE truth they have the MORE they are "set free" from the bondage of error and lies told by Satan about who God is.

Ezekiel was told that if he did not go and tell and warn the wicked - they would die in their sins and their blood required at his hands. But those he was sent to ALREADY HAD Bibles and already knew of the one true God. So this is not an argument about people going to hell because God did not reach them. Rather God is ADDING wave upon wave of mercy and drawing and enlightenment for "God is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance".

Yet still - people will choose to reject salvation and die, though his 'drawing of all" enables them to choose light. Adam had the "ability" to choose right - he chose wrong "anyway". His "ability" was far greater than ours (admittedly) as a sinless holy human created in the image of God - STILL even HE could choose wrong and did.

The Calvinist model is "if you CAN choose wrong you will". The Arminian model is "If you CAN choose right - some will and God will not stop those who will-not from making a bad choice".

Matt 23 "Jerusalem HOW OFTEN I wanted to gather your children for protection ... but YOU would not"

In Christ,

Bob