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The practicality of theological views...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Nov 7, 2011.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yeah, even in the compatibilistic view temptation exists, but my problem with their view is that it can't be distinguished from animal instinct.

    The compatibilist (which Luke claims to be) claims that a choice is free as long as it is in accordance with the man's desire. In other words, if the agent is doing what he wants then it is considered a "free choice" and thus morally accountable. The problem is that when animals react to certain stimuli as seen in an 'instinctive choice' they too are acting according to what they want.

    IMO, temptation in this system is like offering a lion the choice between a steak or a salad. He is going to eat the steak because that is what he wants and more importantly that is how he was created...it is his instinct. The 'choice' when tempted is virtually the same for a man in the compatibilistic system. In this system, the man's God given nature determines his desire which determine his choices so he does what 'he wants' just like the Lion. There is no real basis on which to place human culpability in this kind of system. Most of humanity would be better off as animals because at least they wouldn't spend an eternity in hell for their inborn instinctive reactions to the preordained stimuli.
     
  2. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    Skandelon basically explained your issue with a common argument used for the sinful nature of mankind and the inability (in and of themselves) to respond to anything other than the sinful nature. Passages such as John 8, Romans 3, Ephesians 2, and Titus 3 give us hints of depravity. Figurative language such as dead, blind, deaf showing the depravity are widely used throughout Scripture. While I think Skandelon's explanation is accurate of a common position it is much more complex. The important questions shouldn't be why or how that can be, but does Scripture reveal that kind of limited nature in humans.

    I think in the deepest sense if you wish in my view you can blame God because He did it (Just not like most think with direct application to God doing it primarily). I would appeal to Paul's argumentation in Romans 9. While God made us and raised us for good or evil we are still the ones sinning and are held responsible. What can we say to God if He did it this way? The answer is nothing and yet we still should love His ways. In fact as hard of a pill that may be to swallow we would be wise not to try to twist it to make it sound better. Look at reality, something is going to strike you as odd when thinking of how God made things. What the heck was He thinking letting sin destroy everything? There are much more issues than the question you raised and there is no way to soften them. This is not an atack against His nature because we all agree that God is good and does all to perfection.
     
    #42 zrs6v4, Nov 11, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2011
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I agree. Scripture is the authority and must be the basis for our conclusions. That being said, it should be noted that the bible never says we are born blind, deaf and hardened to the God's appeal for reconciliation. In fact, it teaches in numerous accounts that men "grown hardened" or "become calloused/blind" after rebelling against God's clearly seen and understood revelation over and over again. In Acts 28, for example, Paul clearly contrasts the Israelites, being beneficiaries of God's clear revelation, as "becoming calloused, otherwise they might see, hear, understand and repent." While the Gentiles "will listen." (vs. 28)

    Thus, men are NOT born hardened (unable to see, hear, understand and repent), they only BECOME hardened after continued rebellion, which is why Heb 3 warns us not to allow our hearts to grow hard, and why Jesus tells us we must become like a child (humble/not hardened) to enter his kingdom. Don't get me wrong, I believe we are born enemies of God, but there is nothing that suggests an enemy is born unable to respond to God's genuine appeal to be reconciled. And I concede, we are born spiritually dead, but why else do you think God sent the good news which is said to bring the dead to life? And I'll admit up front that all men are born enslaved, but why does this suggest one can't respond to the truth which is said to set men free?

    While it is true that Paul is making a similar case, it is not the case of a unwanted reprobate born without any hope of responding to faith in God that Paul is addressing. Paul is speaking of the Jew who God in his patience "held out his hands to all day long" (10:21) and "longed to gather under his saving wings" (Mt. 23:37), but they were unwilling and thus became hardened and calloused to God's revelation. Even so, God took from that lump of clay (Israel) some (like Paul) and chose them for a noble purpose, while leaving the rest hardened in their rebellion. But does this mean those hardened have no hope of being saved now? Not at all, they haven't stumble beyond recovery (11:11) but may be provoked to envy and saved (vs 14) and leave their unbelief and be grafted back in. (vs 21-23)
     
  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I can't help but be mistrustful of Calvinism because of this one doctrine they profess. It's completely extrabiblical . I can never accept that my God is saying it's alright to be so harsh in His description. Even though they may think they correct it later by saying nice things about Him. It seems to me like walking a tight rope over hell with out an umbrella. It's like spitting in the face of God and saying "you maid me this way live with it". All the while knowing that it is an serious accusation of God's very character. God is not only all powerful He is holy and Loving. Sovereignty as described by Calvinist doesn't exist in scripture.
    When His Son addressed Him it seemed He couldn't say enough good things of Him.
    "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth."
    It wasn't just heavenly Father.
    My God could never be so decietful as to pretend man has a choice when he doesn't. He could not say He doesn't tempt man and then preordain him to sin.
    God wants our submission to His righteousness.

    How can men Love God and entertain these notions?. If I believed them true I would hate God for not allowing me to have a genuine choice. Simply because I'm a thinking being capable of independant thought. The very sins I have commited proves it.
    MB


     
  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I agree that it seems animalistic.

    Animals are blessed because they didn't inherit our sin nature.
    MB
     
  6. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    I agree that the bible never says we are born hardened. At best Romans 3 reveals that both Jews and Greeks are not righteous and do not seek for God (3:9-11)

    It describes our bondage in a way that must be released by the Spirit. I can deduct the idea that if that is true then all who are without God will need to be loosed from sin by God. There is no age category or age of hardening given. I agree that people can grow to have a harder and more depraved heart because they simply grow in the flesh. This is obviously nothing new to the board here.

    We are born under the curse of this world and come in through Adam (Romans 5 and 8 do a good job describing this as do my passages used previously describing sin and its dominant force over our natures)

    I can probably agree the Bible does not say we are born blind or hardened. But we are born in sin and sin is the source of blindness and growing in hardness. Some grow more than others and some grow more rapidly based on their circumstances and who they are.

    Jesus describes people who are in sin as blind guides, He also describes sin as a blindness that comes by sin (John 9:40). Their needs are to see their blindness (sin) and come to Him, yet the Pharisees thought they could see but were blinded of their condition. We shouldn't disagree that sin equates to blindness and what is related to being dead. I dont think the harsh language of being spiritually dead was used for no reason although I think there are poor explanations of what that entails. A dead person needs the Spirit of life to open his or her eyes. I am not necessarily talking about the common explanation of regeneration (Cal view) , but just speaking in general terms here.

    There is some truth to the widely quoted Isaiah 6 verse throughout the New Testament. Paul's usage quoted in Acts 28 doesn't deny anything I said nor necesarily dispute it. It simply says that the Jews were hardened and the Gentiles were less hardened. Obviously that was not intended to be taken to define a theological position against depravity. I do not think you are using that way though.

    Hardening was a punishment given the Jews by God and they clearly were the hardest hearted people of the time. Yet the Bible also does not go on to say anything about Gentiles hearts being able to receive God in and of themselves. Jesus never underscored that or took it that far in His teaching, but He knew that eventually when the Gospel was delivered that Gentiles would be converted because they were part of God's elect in the New Covenant and they also will Listen because they are new sheep to His flock (John 10, see also 6:35-40; chapter 6 and 10 go together with similar taught lessons)

    Sorry to snip your piece, but I agree men are not born hardened. Hardened and slavery are two different things found in Scripture. I believe you are correct. People are born in sin and grow in hardening but that hardening is inevitable in various degrees as I said above. I appeal to John chapter 6 to describe the need for all men in all levels of hardness needing God's powerful work of saving them. Whether completely hard or soft they need the Spirit, but some naturally appear to be more open. That does not mean they can come to God without the Spirit. I don't think that is what you are saying though.

    This is the easiest way for me to respond to Romans 9.

    9:1-5- Paul's heart for Jews (we agree here)

    9:6-13 Not all who were born with Geneology were true Israelites. Only the ones of promise and chosen (speaking still of Israel) and Paul used the example of God's choice by telling of Jacob over Esau not because of anything they did.

    9:14-18 God's mercy is the defining factor of the chosen and this is not injustice on God's part. Paul's example is Pharaoh a chosen vessel who did not recieve God's blessing. Paul ends with the statement: "He has mercy on whom he desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

    9:19-21 Here is the big point I was looking at. Paul recognizes an obvious paradox that people will argue. How can God remain just and punish one who literally had no choice against His decretive will? Paul responds by asking who gives you the right to questions God's ways, and I will add, even with such harsh and terrifying implications? Paul goes on to say God has the right and is just and it is ok for Him to make people who He wants to make them beyond their ultimate choice (remember verse 18 and 11). Paul's analogy of the potter and the clay show that God is the defining factor in how people turn out in reality. He makes people to fulfill His purposes in both good and both evil. Now He does not tell us how or why or how this works with His overwhelming love and character.

    9:22-23 God's vessels of wrath vs God's vessels of mercy. This reveals they are all preordained to what they will be. The vessels of wrath are patiently endured by God (His pouring out wrath upon them) to reveal the richness of His mercy to the vessels of mercy.

    9:24-26 This is not just a collection of Jews but also of Gentiles (speaking of those who are called to glory). Reference taken from Hosea.

    9:27-29 There was always a remnant in Israel (Isaiah quote) and all would become like Sodom and Gomorrah if God had not left a remnant. Again this reflects Paul's appeal to God's grace giving a remnant of His people of glory that saved everyone from becoming like Sodom and Gomorrah which is consistent with His teaching in chapters 1-3 where all (both Jews and Gentiles) are condemned under the Law.

    9:30-33- The means is by faith, not by works of the Law which is what caused the Jews to stumble. Justification is by faith apart from works of the Law where righteousness (End of Romans 3). Faith does not dominate God's mercy and choice because remember we all would be like Soddom and like Gomorrah. We are a remnant left by God's mercy awaiting glory while the rest are vessels of wrath being kept by God's patient endurance until the time comes for them to pay.

    Again sorry for the length, I just wanted to get that out of the way. My quote to MB was simply saying that a similar argument he made (and most make) was refuted by Paul in 9:19-20

    You will probably appeal to the hardening of Israel and before you do please be specific in why you think that is what is being said here.
     
    #46 zrs6v4, Nov 11, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 11, 2011
  7. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Can you describe the practical differences in the characteristics of one who is totally depraved versus one who is hardened? Are either any more or less able to see, hear, understand and respond, as the scriptures say they would be able to do had they not become hardened?

    If one is not born blind, as you concede, then that implies their ability to see, but doesn't that undermine the concept of TOTAL Inability and that view of 'death.' I mean, keeping with the Calvinistic argument, a corpse is not able to see, hear and understand, is it?

    In regard to my view of Romans 9 I think I answered that question for you a year or so ago. SEE HERE>>>
     
  8. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    I guess your right the bible does teach people are born in sin and thus born hardened :), good find!

    You are correct. People grow in hardening and are born hardened due to the curse. That is if its true that none can come unless drawn. That is an outdated argument though :)

    Ill reread our old convo here in a bit
     
  9. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    No. You make real choices and do what you do without compulsion. God does not force you to sin, you choose to sin.
     
  10. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  11. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    No. We make real choices with real consequences. Calvinism has always affirmed this.
     
  12. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    How does someone born totally blind (i.e. totally unable to see the truth and accept it), become more blind and more unable to see the truth and accept it?

    True. None can come unless drawn and God wasn't drawing anyone but a select few from Israel (i.e. the apostles) until after Christ was raised up (Jn 12:32). When John 6 was taking place the gospel, the means God uses to draw men, hadn't even been sent into all the world.
     
  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Suppose a person is drugged so as to lower their inhibitions and make them willing to do what they may not have chosen to do otherwise? They too would be acting "without compulsion," in that they are made to be willing, right? How is that much different from a system where God is the one who determines the nature/desire by which man will choose according to God's pre-determined plan?

    The only real 'choice' ever being made is by God in that system, and even you have argued that God really doesn't make choices, so where does that leave you? Mystery...paradox...unknown
     
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    For one thing, I am not obsessed with free will. The ability to choose is not the end all be all of the universe. the glory of God is. But I do believe that we do make choices. Unfortunately, I am not much better than you are at explaining how it works. What I am, is convinced that and emphasis on God's glory is far more important than an emphasis on man's free will.
     
  15. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    Skandelon,

    While i'll try to answer this question this is a "how" question. Scripture affirms we are dead in sin, blind, and will not come to God without the Spirit while also teaching that people harden there hearts and others soften them. Apparently there is even a degree of hardness to which one cannot return.

    My explanation is as good as yours. All are lost and dead in sin while some are worse sinners than others. You made a good point earlier regarding hardness and how can one grow harder or more blind? It seems as though one can grow further from the truth while the whole time being lost, dead, and blind.

    Can you give a more in depth explanation of john 5-12 namely regarding how you view being drawn in by God?
     
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Both a result of real free choices God has given us. No mystery whatsoever.
     
  17. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Here we go again. It's the same old tired argument that Paul addressed two thousand years ago. "Why doth he yet find fault, for who hath resisted His will?"

    The answers are in the Scriptures, it's simply that Scandal et al don't believe them.
     
  18. Robert Snow

    Robert Snow New Member

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    You have to remember that Calvinism and Roman Catholicism have a lot in common. Both Luther and Calvin were both Catholics to begin with; they brought a lot of this thinking with them when they left this heretical church.
     
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    This is, as we've all come to expect from you, yet another unwarranted claim.

    You offer no support for this claim, no arguments, no evidence... nothing.

    And I suppose you think it is meaningful just because you say it.

    That is the experience many of us have with many people in IFB. Many of them just preach things without bible support, accuse people of things without any evidence and expect people just to accept what they say because it came from their lips.

    Well, that's simply not enough for thinking people.

    Only mindless drones accept unwarranted claims from people- particularly people who have never evidenced any reasons why anyone should think they have any authority behind what they say.

    If you do not offer support for your claims, all thinking people will continue to reject them outright.
     
  20. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Wrong. You cannot seem to differentiate in your mind between a deed and evil.

    A deed is evil or good only based upon the doer of the deed. It has to do with motive. Murder is killing a person. But all killing of people is not murder. What makes killing a person murder is the motive of the killer.

    God DID will for evil to exist.

    You cannot seem to get that that does not mean that he does evil.

    Yet, on the one hand you affirm that God ordained all that comes to pass. That God has a purpose for every single thing that happens in this universe. While on the other hand you contradict yourself saying that God did not will (or purpose) for evil to exist. This is horrible logic.

    But the problem, Skandelon, is that you KNOW that by the "IT" I have for nearly a year now been referring to the DEED not the EVIL.

    You know that because I have said it to you a dozen times or more on this public forum for all to see. You know it, but you dishonestly continue to purport that I mean EVIL by the "IT".

    For you to do this is for you to bear false witness. And that is a plain fact to which you ought to really devote some very serious consideration.
     
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