The Pre-Tribulation Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Darrell C, Jul 18, 2016.

  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C
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    Okay, a thread to discuss the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, for those who endorse it, as well as those oppose it.

    I will start it off by making the statement that I view the Pre-Tribulation Rapture as the only reasonable view based on the Prophecy of Scripture. At the end of the Tribulation we see the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which pictures believers and unbelievers alike being gathered for judgment, the Sheep enter into the Kingdom promised in Old Testament Prophecy and the unbelievers are destroyed. Christ makes it clear that there is a gathering of all things out of the Kingdom, and I view this as seen in numerous places in Scripture, not least of all...in the very account of Revelation 20.

    So rather than begin with more than that, I will simply open it up to reasons why one would embrace or reject the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. It is usually easier, since most are familiar with the passages that teach about the Rapture, to look at the individual's reasoning.

    God bless.
     
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  2. Smyth

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    Isn't the Great White Throne judgement in Revelation 20 after the Millennium? How does that push the Rapture to before the Tribulation?

    The concept of the Great Tribulation comes from the Olivet Discorse. The Great Tribulation and context can be found in Mark 13:14-27. Here we see Jesus instructing his followers how to handle the Tribulation, because they'll go through it.
     
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  3. Darrell C

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    That is correct, but, that is not the Sheep and Goat Judgment described in Matthew 25, which follows the events of the Tribulation in Matthew 24.


    It doesn't, the Great White Throne judgment is separated from the end of the Tribulation by one thousand years, seventy five days:


    Daniel 12:7-12

    King James Version (KJV)


    7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

    8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.



    The first reference to time is 3 1/2 years according to the Jewish Calendar (1240 days). The second reference to time gives an additional 30 days; the last reference makes a total of 75 days after the 3 1/2 years.

    That is with the time beginning at the time which most likely coincides with Daniel 9:27...


    Daniel 9:27

    King James Version (KJV)

    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.



    That event takes place in the middle of the Seven Year Period described in Revelation, which is further supported (a seven year Tribulation Period) by the fact that the Two Witnesses and the Antichrist both have forty two month ministry/rampage.

    I see it as Satan being bound at the end of the Tribulation, then a 75 day establishment period in which the Sheep and judgment take place, then Satan is loosed and we see those who rebel against God and join with Satan destroyed. So if you are pre-millennial, you can distinguish between the two judgments.

    We see in Matthew 24:27-28 reference to the "eagles" and carcasses. This is made clear here:


    Luke 17:24

    King James Version (KJV)

    24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.


    Luke 17:34-37

    King James Version (KJV)

    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.



    The answer to "Where are they taken" is...in judgment.

    Unbelievers are put to death during this time, and believers remain alive. The only ones mentioned as being raised from the dead after the Tribulation are the Tribulation Martyrs who are clearly identified here:


    Revelation 20:4-5

    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



    They did not take mark of the beast, which is specific to the events described in Revelation. They did not worship him. They did not fail in their testimony of Christ and were thus executed.

    Now, the first thing someone is going to think when they read of the First Resurrection is that this has a sequential meaning, but, protos is not always used for sequence, but speaks of rank. There are two types of resurrections spoken of in Scripture, the resurrection unto life, and the resurrection unto damnation. When the thousand years are up, those not raised at this time are raised to stand before the Great White Throne.

    This is just a brief description in response to this question, there is much more that would need to be considered in order to give this the time it deserves. So hope that helps in regards to this question.


    Continued...
     
  4. Darrell C

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    Not just there. It is also spoken of in direct detail in Revelation, and we see mention of it in Old Testament Prophecy as well (which we conclude by comparing it with the revelation of the New Testament.

    Here is an example:

    Ezekiel 39

    King James Version (KJV)


    1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

    2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

    3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.

    4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

    5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.



    Remember the eagles spoken of by Christ in His teaching concerning the Tribulation. We see it referred to here, as well as in Revelation:


    Revelation 19:17-21

    King James Version (KJV)


    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



    What is being described is the destruction of the enemies of God. Christ teaches that all things which offend will be removed from His Kingdom, and that is what He is speaking about when He speaks of those being taken.

    And if we return to Ezekiel 39, we see a seven month and a seven year period following this destruction of unbelievers:


    Ezekiel 39:9-12

    King James Version (KJV)


    9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

    10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.

    11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

    12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.



    So we see in Prophecy an event which has at least seven years in the temporal following it. This could not apply to the destruction of the enemies of God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

    And again, because there will be unbelievers in the Millennial Kingdom, and no unbelievers survive the Tribulation and the judgment that follow it, the only reasonable point at which time all believers (both dead and alive, unlike that described by Christ and John) could be raptured is prior to the Tribulation.


    Continued...
     
  5. Darrell C

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    This is just passage to refer to. There are in fact many.

    Have you ever considered Paul's desire to be raptured spoken of here...


    2 Corinthians 5

    King James Version (KJV)


    1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

    3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

    4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.



    To be unclothed here is a reference to death. Paul does not mean to impress upon us that he desires to die that he might be shed of unredeemed flesh, but...that we would be clothed upon with that tabernacle from Heaven, which is the glorified body.

    And he says nothing about going through the Tribulation.

    The Tribulation will begin without the first believer, and throughout many will come to faith in Christ. Those who live will enter into the Kingdom, because they are born again. But those not born again will not enter, according to Christ's teaching to Nicodemus in John 3.


    Actually, we see Christ instructing Israel, because they will be brought back into union with God through this. This is when the Time of the Gentile ends, and "all Israel shall be saved" by her Redeemer because only those saved during the Tribulation will be physically living and enter into that Kingdom (of Israel, Gentiles will also be saved in this period).

    Hope that helps.


    God bless.
     
  6. Smyth

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    Your posts are rambling and incoherent. I don't see how anything you posted even remotely supports a pretribulational rapture. Your opening statement was a reference to the judgement at the end of the millennium, which in no way pushes the timing of the rapture to pre-tribulation.

    I offered the most relevant passage in all the Bible, Mark 13:14-27. Jesus is speaking to his followers and telling them what they'll experience in the Tribulation.

    Jesus tells his followers when they, "when you", see the abomination that causes desolation to leave Judea and "flee to the mountains." The "you" is identified in context as Jesus' disciplines, not that thing you call Israel. Christ's Instructions to flee Judea would only be meaningful to His followers, Christians. But, in your theology, they'd be raptured, and not in Judea to flee.

    Jesus teaches that the elect/chosen would endure the Tribulation. Without any excuse whatsoever, you take "elect" to mean unbelievers (the thing you ironically call Israel). There is no doubt, in context, that Jesus uses "elect" to mean Christians. And, the Greek word behind "elect" is never used in all the Bible to refer to anyone in a state of unbelief. Your doctrine isn't just unarguably false (hence you lack of a coherent argument), its also blasphemous (calling the elect of God those who reject Jesus).
     
  7. Darrell C

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    Here is my opening statement:


    Not sure why you would see this as "a reference to the judgement at the end of the millennium."

    I am quite clear that it is at the End of the Tribulation, and if you bothered to read the posts you would see I am clear that there is a different judgment at the end of the Tribulation and at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

    So don't blame me because you are not able to understand some pretty clear posts, and impose into your understanding something that is not even relevant to what I said.


    No, you offered a passage that is just one relevant passage in regards to the Rapture of the Church, and the only relevance is that it speaks about the Tribulation itself.

    Just because you see this as "the most relevant passage in all of the Bible" in a context of the discussion of the timing of the Rapture...doesn't mean it is.


    And He is speaking to...Jews.

    Not Christians.

    The disciples are not believers in the Resurrection at this point, and Christ is ministering in a capacity that is specific to the Nation of Israel.

    A few verses to support those basic truths are...


    Matthew 15:23-24

    King James Version (KJV)

    23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

    24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.




    Mark 16:9-14

    King James Version (KJV)


    9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

    10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

    11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

    12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

    13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

    14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.



    Now, to make sure it is clear that I view believers in the Tribulation as Christians, let me say so plainly...those who come to saving faith in the Tribulation will be born again believers, and it is those among them that live through the Tribulation who will inhabit the Kingdom prepared for them by the Father.

    Those who die after coming to saving faith will be raised at the end of the Tribulation and reign with Christ for one thousand years:


    Revelation 20:4-5

    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



    Continued...
     
  8. Darrell C

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    So what is the Abomination of Desolation, Smyth?


    Matthew 24:15

    King James Version (KJV)

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)



    I gave you what Daniel states, put these together and understand that this is specific to Temple Worship.

    How many Christians you know that offer up sacrifice at the Temple these days?

    How many Christians do you think will be doing that in the Tribulation?


    Continued...
     
  9. Darrell C

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    I would agree in part, but, it looks forward to those events and speaks of those who recognize what is taking place.


    Temple Service is not relevant to New Covenant believers, Smyth.

    That is just a basic truth of Scripture.


    I agree, but how does that change the fact that in view is the Tribulation believers, not those Christ is speaking to in that day.

    That is why we call it Prophecy.


    Sorry, no, my Eschatology consistently teaches a difference between the Church, that is Raptured as a whole, both living and dead...

    ...and those that believe on Christ in the Tribulation.

    So the Church will be raptured, then those that come to saving faith will go through those events. And it is at the mid-point of the Seventieth WEek described in Daniel that the Abomination of Desolation stands in the Holy Place:


    2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

    King James Version (KJV)


    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



    Continued...
     
  10. Darrell C

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    And this is true, because all believers...are among the Elect.

    That is just kind of a given, Smyth.

    Doesn't demand that the Elect in view are the Church.

    And again, Paul is quite clear that everyone in the Church is raptured at the same time:


    1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

    King James Version (KJV)


    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



    If you place this at the end of the Tribulation...where do these...


    Revelation 20:7-9

    King James Version (KJV)


    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.



    ...come from?


    Continued...
     
  11. Darrell C

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    So quote me where I imply that unbelievers are the Elect?

    I can already tell you that you cannot.

    Is this what you call discussing the Rapture, Smyth? Making false charges against your antagonist?

    So quote me saying that unbelievers are Elect.


    Continued...
     
  12. Darrell C

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    And not one word I have said denies that. So quote what it is that confused you and we will talk about it.


    Sure it is, because the Elect have a point in time when they come into relationship with God.

    Men are not born saved, though they are Elect from Eternity Past.

    There's a difference, you know.


    Romans 9:11

    King James Version (KJV)

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)



    Here is a reference to someone Elect who has not been born again.

    Now, do you think that Isaac was born in relationship to God, and that he was not born under condemnation as everyone else is? Do you want to say that the Elect are born...saved?

    You are of the Elect, are you not? Were you born saved, Smyth?


    Continued...
     
  13. Darrell C

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    You are not addressing my points, you are addressing your own. It is quite clear in the OP that I am referring to the judgment that takes place after the Tribulation, not the judgment that takes place after the Millennial Kingdom.

    If you had read the posts, you would see that point further detailed and clarified.

    But you don't really have any objective of basing your view on what Scripture states...do you?

    If you want to address the points, at least try to address my points rather than your perceived points which are clearly shown to be false arguments.


    So quote me doing that.

    And when you can discuss this with a little more than emotion, let me know.


    God bless.
     
  14. Smyth

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    The OP referred to Revelation 20, that judgement is after the Millennium. The OP referred to Revelation 20, that judgement is after the Millennium. If you meant Matthew 25:32-33, why did you refer to Revelation 20, but not Matthew? If you're giving further detail, it's lost in your incoherent rambling and excessive verse quoting.

    Before I invited you to start this topic, I gave you just one instruction: Be concision.

    You've done just the opposite.
     
    #14 Smyth, Jul 19, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
  15. Smyth

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    It took you message a full screen long just to claim that the elect Jesus referred to those not yet born again. I just presented your argument in just a half sentence.You should have, too. Actually, you should have, because it's a stupid argument. As already pointed out to you, only Jesus's disciples, those born again, would have heeded his instructions. There's a number other problems with you argument, but I'll leave it at that one point.


     
  16. Smyth

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    A passage that speaks about the Tribulation itself is more relevant to the Tribulation than those passages that don't mention it, don't you think?

    When the Bible says Jesus his talking to his "disciples" about the Tribulation, rational people understand that Jesus is talking to Christians. For umpteenth time, only believers in Jesus would heed his warnings and instructions. Jesus, speaking to his followers, uses word "you" over and over not "jews". The only question, do you believe Jesus, or not?

    There you go spamming verses that don't support you.

    You believe Christians will be removed before the tribulation. You probably believe the Holy Spirit will also be removed. Yet, you believe people will come to faith in the Tribulation, without preachers and the HS. That's unbiblical and insane. And, it's IRRELEVANT.
     
  17. Smyth

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    As it was with the First Temple, it's whatever thing that causes the Temple to be destroyed. But, this is IRRELEVANT. The issue is the timing of the Rapture. We not focused on your disbelief of other biblical truths. What does it matter what the Abomination of Desolation is, in regards to the topic?
     
  18. Smyth

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    Aside from the absurdity of the doctrine of people coming to Christ without being led by either Christians or the HS in your absurd concept of the Tribulation, Jesus' instructions to his followers to escape the Tribulation comes too late for those imagined converts within the Tribulation.

    .
     
  19. Darrell C

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    Here it is again, Smyth:

    The gathering out of His Kingdom is contrasted with the end of the Tribulation and the Sheep and Goat Judgment.

    Here is the gathering out of His Kingdom in Revelation 20:


    Revelation 20

    King James Version

    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



    This is a separate event where we see a gathering and judgment, and I make it clear that the Sheep and Goat judgment is in view. That i mention the judgment of the Great White Throne doesn't change that.

    Secondly, I went into great detail to show why this is relevant to the timing of the Rapture, lol.


    And I can appreciate the humor in that.

    ;)


    On the contrary, the response is concise.

    That you do not like what it states doe not change the fact that it gives the Biblical reason for my own view.


    Continued...
     
  20. Darrell C

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    How is this...


    Sure it is, because the Elect have a point in time when they come into relationship with God.

    Men are not born saved, though they are Elect from Eternity Past.

    There's a difference, you know.


    Romans 9:11

    King James Version (KJV)

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)


    Here is a reference to someone Elect who has not been born again.

    Now, do you think that Isaac was born in relationship to God, and that he was not born under condemnation as everyone else is? Do you want to say that the Elect are born...saved?

    You are of the Elect, are you not? Were you born saved, Smyth?



    ...a full screen long?

    As far as it being a fact they were not born again, that is pretty obvious...Isaac isn't even born yet.

    Now, unless you want to say that men are born again, you are going to have to cede the point.


    Continued...
     

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