The Priority of Lordship

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin, Apr 19, 2007.

  1. Martin

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    The Priority of Lordship

    In Matthew 10:37-39 the Lord Jesus says:

    "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.”


    Scripture is perfectly clear that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone (Eph 2:8-9, Jn 14:6, etc). However Scripture is also clear that salvation is not something a person has simply because they agree with a set of facts. True saving faith is total trust in, total commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ. The result of true saving faith is obedience to Christ as Lord. There is no way to have Jesus as your Savior and not as your Lord. If Jesus is not your Lord, He is not your Savior.

    In the passages cited above our Lord makes that fact very clear. Those who are His, those who are worthy of Him, are those who put Him first in their lives and die to themselves so they can live for Him.


    If we put our self-interests before Jesus, or if we put other people before Jesus, then our trust in Him is not total. We are not whole-heartedly following Him. Jesus’ sheep don’t follow strangers, nor does His sheep follow other sheep, His sheep follow Him (Jn 10:27). Our obedience to the Lord must come before anything and anyone else. Obedience does not make us His sheep, obedience does not save, but obedience is proof that we are truly saved (1Jn 3:9-10).


    If we count our lives as more important than Jesus then our trust in Him is not total. We should be willing to die to ourselves, to our self-interests in order to follow Him. This is not always easy to do, nor does any believer do this perfectly, but if we are His sheep we will do this. It is evidence that we are truly regenerated.
    So while salvation is a free gift, being saved, following Christ, will cost us everything.
     
  2. reformedbeliever

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    Amen.... very much what I preached Sunday morning.
     
  3. webdog

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    I'm sorry...but my take on Lordship Salvation is that it smells of a works based salvation...if God isn't Lord in "x" area of my life, I'm not his (as the above quote implies). We can't "put" Christ or "make" Him anything in our lives, He's God and we're not.
    Would the above quote apply to Job?
     
  4. ituttut

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    This Lordship salvation is of "works". You obey or else. This will put the person under "bondage", just as the Nation of Israel was. It is today by Grace through faith, and not by faith. We are not Israel, and our only connection with them is by their stumbling. Why do we wish to continue to "gloss over" Damascus Road?
     
  5. James_Newman

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    Jesus was speaking of finding life in the millennial kingdom. Salvation is a free gift, the kingdom requires obedience.
     
  6. ituttut

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    Amen! There is the "Kingdom Church", and there is the "Body Church".
     
  7. swaimj

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    How is it that we must count Jesus as more important than our lives, and do this totally, yet we cannot do it perfectly. If we cannot do this perfectly, then we cannot do it totally. If we must do it totally, then we must do it perfectly. Your statement is very typical of the "Lordship salvation" view and it is blatantly self-contradictory. It would be comical if you guys were not so serious about it.
     
  8. Hope of Glory

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    If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and smells like a duck...

    Lordship salvation is a fallacy that is nothing but a works based salvation and it contradicts Acts 16:31 that answers the question, "What must I do to be saved?"

    "Believe (aorist; punctiliar action; a semple mental assent) on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved." It's "believe" plus nothing else.

    As James pointed out, making him Lord of your life is a Kingdom message, not a spiritual salvation message.
     
  9. Allan

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    I don't think the Lordship Issue is about us making Christ Lord in differing areas of our lives, as much as it is the IDENTIFIER of those who are Born-Again believers. And it is the identifier BECAUSE it is Christ (thier Lord - the one to whom they are yeilded) who is constantly centering Himself in and throught out our lives. Thus the perceived obedience seen in their lives.

    One CAN NOT be saved unless they surrender to the very Lordship of Christ (Godhood), thus Lordship is actually a salvation issue (Rom 10:9 - ...confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus... and Rom 10:13 -Whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved. [among many others]) It is about denying self and relying on/in Him alone - thus Lordship or complete control being yeild to.
    Lord - Kurios = Supreme Ruler.

    If someone claims to be born again but shows no manifested fruit nor obedience to the truths they know. What shall we say: faith without works is alive??


    If we ARE Born-Again, God WILL bring us into the subjection of Christ in all areas (but at differing times) that we may be conformed to the image of His dear Son - which we ARE predestined to in His likeness. - Agreed?

    Can a believer STAY in sin and unrighteousness, denying God's will to become conformed to the image of His Son. I think not.
     
    #9 Allan, Apr 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2007
  10. pinoybaptist

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    Jesus Christ IS Lord, no if's, no but's, no two ways about it. He cannot be made Lord, because He is already Lord. Those who are His knows this, whether by teaching, preaching, or "instinct", if you will.
    Those who are not His will find this out, in His own time.

    Having said that, I think the passage above has no relation at all to those who are His in general, whoever they are, wherever they are, and whenever in time they exist, but to those, in particular, who say they have been called to follow Christ into the ministry, into a life of service, who present themselves before brethren as "missionaries", if you will, called to preach the gospel and to serve the flock.

    If He is Lord to them, and they profess Him to be so, and they say they are called to follow Him, and that He called them to "work in the field", then He must take precedence above all, pleasing Him, obeying Him, submitting to His bidding in their lives as His undershepherds, must be their first priority, because IF NOT, then they have not really been called into the ministry.

    To tie His Lordship with the elect's salvation is to add even a tiny, weenie bit of ink on the immensely bright and immaculately white sheet of pure, unmerited grace. It soils grace.
     
  11. Martin

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    ==As I said in the post "Scripture is perfectly clear that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone (Eph 2:8-9, Jn 14:6, etc)", " salvation is a free gift", "obedience does not save", etc.





    ==As I said in the post, "This is not always easy to do, nor does any believer do this perfectly, but if we are His sheep we will do this. It is evidence that we are truly regenerated". Also the situation of Job is somewhat different than ours (Jn 14:17, Eph 1:13-14, Jer 31:33, Ez 36:26-27, 1Jn 3:9-10).
     
  12. Martin

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    ==Did you read my post? Obedience does not bring salvation it is a result of salvation (1Jn 2:3-6, 3:9-10).
     
  13. Lou Martuneac

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    Defining the Lines for Discussion

    To All:

    When any discussion of the Lordship interpretation of the gospel is under way it is imperative that clear lines for discussion be drawn from the outset.

    The debate over Lordship Salvation is not over the results of salvation. The debate is over the requirements for salvation.

    Daily submission to the lordship of Christ should follow a genuine conversion to Christ. I trust there is widespread agreement that a new creature in Christ will set out to do the “good works” (Eph. 2:10) expected of a believer, and to grow in the grace and knowledge of his Lord and Savior (2 Peter 3:18). Christians will flop and fail at times in their walk with God, but growth is seen to one degree or another. We all struggle with the flesh (Rom. 7:15-25) and the sin that so easily besets us (Heb. 12:1).

    I am sure all of us are frustrated by the examples we see in our churches today of people who profess Christ, but live more like the Devil. There are, of course, some in Bible believing churches who are professing Christ, but never received Him as their Savior. These will, Lord willing, one day get saved, or they will likely move on.

    As I said, we all share frustration over the loose living of professing believers. We would like to see all of these continue to grow in grace and faith. The answer to this problem, however, is not found in changing the terms of the gospel, which is what Lordship Salvation does. Requiring decisions of commitment, full-surrender, and absolute submission from a lost man will not make the problem of carnal Christians go away.

    I trust we all agree that no sinner can be born again if he prays a prayer to escape death and Hell, but fully intends to go on in his sinful ways in rebellion and defiance against the Lord. There is no genuine repentance in that.

    Lordship Salvation places demands on the sinner for salvation that the Bible does not. As you consider the Lordship issue remember that the gospel does not front-load faith with demands for commitment and promises to what should be expected results of a genuinely born again Christian.

    To reiterate: The debate is over the requirements for, not what should be the expected results of salvation.


    LM

    In Defense of the Gospel
     
  14. webdog

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    Allan, I only mentioned making God Lord in "x" to show that assurance is conditional in this doctrine. Lordship Salvation teaches that faith is necessary for salvation...but not quite enough. Some things deemed "necessary" for salvation in Lordship Salvation include confession, baptism, restitution, commitment, good works and surrender to Christ's lordship (hence the name).
    I think you are crossing terms, or at least how I understanad them. Faith in Christ is absolutely necessary. Good works aren't guaranteed or necessary to be deemed righteous. See Lot.
    We shouldn't say anything, we aren't called to be fruit inspectors :) You have mistakenly taken an immutable truth statement and applied the converse as also immutable truth. Faith without works being dead is like a car without a battery being dead. Faith is still faith, albeit "dead" just like the car doesn't cease to be a car even though it is "dead". Works is what keeps our faith and relationship strong...it's not what makes our faith. Same with the car / battery. The battery is needed to make the car run. Our relationship with God "dies", not our standing in Christ.
    BTW, how many works are needed for faith to not be dead? Is it one? One hundred? 1 hour a day? 22 hours a day? How many works did Lot perform in order to be deemed righteous and godly? It appears to me he was living carnally...being DRAGGED out of the city.
    Absolutely. The thing is we don't know how and when this takes place. Again going back to Lot, Lot was deemed righteous even before Abraham. Their lives took on two strangely different paths...but they were both righteous. I see people dismiss the faith of children and teens because they live "worldly" for years after their profession. They don't fit the bill under "lordship salvation".
    I was one of those. My walk with God suffered for YEARS. I lived for myself, and not God. On the outside you would have never known I was a believer (as with Lot). I know that I was still righteous because God kept calling me back. He wouldn't leave me alone :) He chastened me...hard sometimes...until I returned. That's why I love the story with Lot. Its like looking in a mirror, and it also shows the extent of grace God has for His own. When we are faithless...He remains faithful.
    Yes. If you don't think so, you would have to disagree with God's declaration of Lot.
    Again, what is the time frame? Does Scripture say the conformation to the image of Christ takes "x" amount of time..."x" years..."x" good works? Good people who do good works don't go to Heaven. Forgiven people do.

    *edited - That's great news about the church plant! I pray that God uses your ministry to the fullest! He has really blessed you with a great abundance of wisdom, knowledge, and a kind spirit. Keep us updated :thumbs:
     
    #14 webdog, Apr 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 20, 2007
  15. webdog

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    Welcome to the BB :thumbs:

    Your post is dead on. LS is not dealing with the results of salvation, but what is required to BE saved. Good post.
     
  16. Lou Martuneac

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    Believe or Behave?

    Martin:

    That is well said.

    One way I put it is to say that Lordship advocates place behavior right along side believing. They do understand Romans 10:9-10's "believe," but they skew its meaning.

    Following is a brief and slightly edited portion from my book In Defense of the Gospel: Biblical Answers to Lordship Salvation.

    LM

    In Defense of the Gospel
     
  17. reformedbeliever

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    Amen.......... of course I believe we are predestined to salvation, and to be conformed. :)
     
  18. reformedbeliever

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    I agree completely with this. I've never studied the so called "Lordship Salvation". If lordship salvation is teaching that there are so called requirements for salvation....... then the only requirement I know of is to be born again... and believe. I do however believe that one who is born again will make Jesus Lord of their life.
     
  19. skypair

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    Ah, another John MacArthur fan! :wavey:

    Only one thing problematic about that -- Christ is not Lord in anyone's life 100% 24/7/365.

    So at what point do you say, "This one is saved and this one not?" Or "I'm saved or I'm not?"

    Perhaps this is a bit jaundiced by it almost amounts to "Catholicism with a caviat" regarding knowledge of what works God requires -- namely Protestant works, not Catholic ones.

    If I may --- "works" are the path to SANCTIFICATION, not salvation. How are YOU going to arrive in heaven? As sanctified, as full of Christ, as when you left the earth.

    skypair
     
    #19 skypair, Apr 20, 2007
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  20. webdog

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    If you agree with this, you are not an LS advocate :)
    This thread is a little confusing to me. RB (calvinist) doesn't seem to agree with LS...but Allan (non cal) seems to agree. :confused: Is there a full moon? :D
    I really appreciate your open heart and mind, RB. You remind me of myself a couple years ago in regards to soteriology.

    BTW, we can't "make" Jesus Lord of our lives...if we are His, He IS. We can live by the sin nature, but positionally, if we are "in Christ" we are His.
     
    #20 webdog, Apr 20, 2007
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