The Problems of L & I

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by PastorSBC1303, Mar 6, 2004.

  1. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303
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    From my experience many people have problems with the doctrines of Grace at Limited Atonement and Irrestible Grace. When I was grappling with these issues a few years back, I too had problems with them. But I finally came to grips with them by understanding them this way...

    Atonement is both limited and unlimited. It is unlimited to all who will repent and believe. And yet it is limited to only those who repent and believe. Otherwise you have universalism.

    I have never liked the term Irresitble. I prefer to look at it as Inevitable Grace. Man can run and resist God at points, ie Jonah. But God's purpose of Grace will always be accomplished in God's way and God's time.

    Just some thoughts....any others?
     
  2. pinoybaptist

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    I think what you are saying about atonement is similar to somebody who switched to cigars because cigars seem to be less harmful than cigarettes.

    As for Jonah, he wasn't running from God's grace, he was already its recipient. He was running from God's command to go and preach the mercy of God to a sinful people.
     
  3. Frogman

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    In considering this subject in light of Jonah's experience, I also believe things happen to us to ground us in the doctrines of Grace and make our foundation sure through the power of God to sustain them.

    I would think God did not have to send Jonah to Ninevah but could raise up another, instead he showed his power to Jonah and that kind of lesson taught will never be doubted.

    May God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  4. Yelsew2

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    PastorSBC1303,
    Wrong, Atonement is what God did, declaring it to be for the sins of the world. That is very much like "God so loved the world...". There is no limitation because atonement is done by an unlimited being for ALL the sins of the World. The medium through which God accomplished Atonement is Deity in the form of man. It is man's misguided thinking that puts limits on what God does. NO, it is not universalism to see God's deeds as universally applicable. Atonement is the method by which God removed the penalty of sin "which was" death of the sinner. He put that penalty on Deity in human form, thus enabling HIS new covenant with man which is Eternal Life through faith! If there had been no atonement, ALL who sin would surely die, just as God declared to Adam in the Garden. Atonement is not just for the Jews, but for ALL sins of ALL times, from Adam and Eve through to "the last man standing"! There is simply NO LIMITATION on God's Atonement for sin, so get that idea out of your theology, it is WRONG THINKING! Atonement is not an invention of man who is limited, but of God who is not!

    There is but ONE (1) God, and there is but ONE (1) God's Grace! And Yes man has been resisting God's grace from Adam forward to and including today, and if the Lord tarry, into tomorrow. So get that "flavored grace" idea out of your theology too! It is wrong thinking, and stupid religiosity! Furthermore it is not God's grace that man resists, it is TRUTH! We resist the Truth of God because we sin! NO! we are not 'totally depraved', we sin! Big difference! God sees us as worthy of His LOVE, else He would not have sent HIS only begotten son, to be the Atonement for our sins. An atonement that removed the penalty of sin from us and laid it ALL on the life of Jesus, thereby making it possible for those who have faith in God, especially faith in the Son of God, to have everlasting life.

    Test your dogma against the Fact that there is but one God, and you will find that all the definitions are human definitions and NOT the definitions that God assigns to Himself and His attributes.

    Yes, man's definitions are included in the "Holy Word of God", but that does not mean God spoke them, He accepts them in His word as anyone accepts favorable "complements". God seeks our praise, and blesses those who do so!
     
  5. Frogman

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    Originally posted by Yelsew:
    Yes, man's definitions are included in the "Holy Word of God", but that does not mean God spoke them, He accepts them in His word as anyone accepts favorable "complements". God seeks our praise, and blesses those who do so!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Yelsew,
    There is much in your last post I disagree with. but I wish to speak my disagreement with your apparent denial of the Bible as being the full complete inspired word of God.

    Dear brother, this is why there is so much difficulty with your debates. Would you make a list of those passages of scripture that God merely accepts as complements and are not a part of HIS Holy Word? This may help us a great deal in discussing our differences.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  6. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
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    No, Frogman I will not do that!

    If you cannot accept the truth that the books of the bible were written by men, whether or not each jot and tittle was inspired by God, and that those men wrote in 'humanspeak' what God, using 'Godspeak' impressed upon their hearts, then you will never understand the Holy Bible. You will always be "caught-up" in chapter and verse extractions that support you own line of thinking.

    NO, I do not think of the Bible as "less than" the Word of God. NOR do I think of the bible as "the whole or final" Word of God.

    Consider the Psalm's, did God write that book or did David, a man who had much faith in God? Are the praises written there because God wrote them or are they there because the express a man's worship of God?
     
  7. Frogman

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    Go sit at Paul's feet on Mars' Hill in Athens.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    Yelsew said:

    But, then, GOD said:

    Can't add, can't subtract. Therefore, no longer a draft, but the final one.
     
  9. Yelsew2

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    Pinoybaptist,
    The words in Revelation are about John's book of Revelation, which was a separately written book.

    The bible, the collection of books was not compiled for some centuries after the words of John's Revelation were written.

    You miss apply those words if you apply them to the whole of the modern bible.

    As for your comment; That is exactly what the church did in compiling the modern bible. They added book after book after book until a committee decided there were enough books, then they called that collection the canon of scripture, which we call the HOLY BIBLE.
     
  10. Yelsew2

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    If you can, I can! So Get going, I've always wanted to go back in time and see the reality, I'm not afraid of what I'll find!
     
  11. Frogman

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    Did the church sanctify scripture by canonization, or did God sanctify His Word? I believe God accomplished this prior to canonization.

    Bro. Dallas
    Btw, I cannot travel back in time, but I can read the words of Paul in Acts 17, this has been preserved for me by the Holy Spirit to prevent me from falling into the same kind of superstition they suffered.
     
  12. Yelsew2

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    What specifically in Acts 17 are you referring to?

    The Thessalonians?
    The Beroeans?
    The Athenians?
    Or the Areopogites?
     
  13. Frogman

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    yelsew, let's not sabotage this post. Did I ask you to go to Mars' hill in Athens? Who lives in Athens, Bosnians?

    Now, let's try to post in accordance to this message or if we have nothing else to add, let's just read what the brothers and sisters post and keep our mouths closed. You stated what appeared to me a denial of the inspiration of the word of God, I pointed that out, we discussed it. Now that is off topic. I will read any post you make to this in reply, but I will not reply unless my reply is in direct relation to the topic of this thread. This way you will have the last word in this never ending debate of ours concerning the integrity of the word of God which BTW almost always comes up in your presentation of humanistic philosophical theology. :confused:

    May God Bless

    Bro. Dallas
     
  14. Me2

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    Limited atonement is much like saying limited Grace.
    Wouldnt that be heretical and mischaracterizing Gods will.

    1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved,
    and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


    did I typed that correctly?. God WILL HAVE all men to be saved..

    is this contrary when only a few are being called. and out of that bunch, a few being chosen to be "sons of God" (saved). What of all the rest not being called or saved?.

    Can we say that perhaps we are not witnessing the entire plan of God today and that there must be something we are misunderstanding. perhaps something futuristic to occur in Gods judgement towards all, who have died and not been called?
     
  15. Frogman

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    Me2,
    Define 'saved' and also show what is 'truth'.

    If God would have ALL men to come to each of these, then wouldn't he be a sad and disappointed God?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  16. Me2

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    Frogman,

    A rightful son of God has come to the conclusion that he himself has been resurrected from death with Christ. the proof being the word of the holy spirit within him. exclaiming that Jesus is Lord.
    by the evidence of the new spirit within the believer. and now begins the new definition of identifying life from the spiritual perspective instead of the carnal perspective.

    Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    ***

    the difference between a carnal babe "in Christ" and a mature son is that the babe can only see Christ dying For him. The babe doesnt require himself to do anything but accept forgiveness. but the bible goes on to say

    Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

    Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
    Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

    the requirement only point to the evidence that without chastizement. the understanding is not present and the babe cannot discern between Good and evil.

    chastizement from the perspective that what you see and understand as spiritual. the world, flesh and devil will come against your new perspectives as falsehoods and lies.

    when I say that all men are to be saved. I bring about a flurry of opposite viewpoints in which God allows mankind to choose his destiny in a burning eternal hellhole. And God allows this by accepting this ignorant choice of Man?
    Now that intrigues me for God himself has proven to me that he loves me by giving me this gift of His resurrected Sons spirit. He states that he is no respector of persons.
    that alone tell me that if I am treated with Love. then Every creature that has been created by Him will be treated exactly the same.

    I understand and see his plans, yet there is a strong delusion sent out to cloud mens mind. It is the lie that God does not Love ALL MEN. That some will be Judged Differently than that of His son. Jesus. That also Intrigues me for Jesus Represents All Men. Not only Some.
    But the lie is accepted. As Planned Of God
    Himself.

    2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    This is meant for the vessels of Wrath. To say and act according to Gods Plans. He is creating Adversaries of the vessels of Mercy. As well as the actual vessels of mercy called the sons of God.

    I am not decider of mens thoughts. You ask me what I see And ill tell You the truth. Gods plans are in place. The players are being taught accordingly. The majority of Christians today are vessels of Wrath. Easily Identified by the lack of Faith in GodsAll Sufficient Grace, His Complete Sovereignty and infinite Love for Man. HIS CREATION.

    If He fails in portraying himself to be perfect before his creation. His creation is the eternal living proof of his failure.

    Now truth...

    Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
    Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
    Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
    Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
    Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
    Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

    we can quote all night about truth. but either we understand truth as carnal babes or as mature Sons of God. Depends on who your talking to.
    Im a Son. Ill Tell you the spiritual truth even if you cant accept it. Why because thats what Im supposed to de. Represent truth.

    2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

    Me2
     
  17. PastorSBC1303

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    If the atonement is not limited in some form then you have universal salvation. It must be limited to only those who repent and believe. Otherwise you have a mess on your hands.

    Those who go to hell are paying the penalty for their own sin. If the atonement is unlimited, then they are paying a penalty that Christ already paid for? Did the atonement of Christ not work for them? And you would have a double payment happening. Christ paid for their sins, but it didn't take, and then they have to pay the penalty in hell as well.
     
  18. Yelsew2

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    NO SIR! You are confusing Atonement with Salvation.

    Atonement makes salvation through faith possible. Atonement covers all sins of all times. Therefore atonement is not limited, and cannot in any form be limited by man.

    Salvation is through FAITH ALONE! If you do not have FAITH when you die from the flesh, you will be cast into the lake of Fire. If you do have faith when you die from the flesh, You will pass from death unto life everlasting!
     
  19. Me2

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    Pastorsbc1303,

    Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

    when you were called..did you repent?

    answer no.
    that would be working to receive the gift.

    Gods grace is a free gift.

    those who go to hell receive the due payment for their own additional work.
    and remember hell ends at the great white throne.

    at the judgement everyone receives is innocence due to Jesus Christ paying the Full debt. He conquered over the power of Death by proving that death was not more powerful than resurrection power of Our Father. Our father gives us his sons spirit. everyone. at all times in history. and no one desreves this free gift. Our father gives to all freely.

    and no Human being has the power to refuse.
    We are creatures. He is God. BIG DIFFERENCE.

    atonement requires nothing. not even a thank you.

    its the purging of sin that requires our attention. it is the acts of killing the works of the carnal flesh. and learning dependence on our father for our daily needs. this occurs in the lake of Fire.

    Just as "Sons of God" are doing today. purging sin from their life.

    and Yelsew keeps speaking of Faith, Faith, Faith... Faith leads to something. Receiving the understanding. So Receive Yelsew. Receive the Spirit of Jesus Christ INSIDE YOU. DIE TO SELF.

    BECOME RESURRECTED WITH CHRIST. then you can say that faith of christ that is within you has made you whole. that you now have proof. faith has now become reality.

    Me2
     
  20. Yelsew2

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    Warning! ME2 that is FALSE DOCTRINE!

    Grace is not a gift! It is behavior of one toward another! The grace of one is powerless to affect change in another. It does however set the tone for further communication.

    If when one is called, one does not repent from what one is doing or repent from the direction one is going, one cannot respond to the call, OR receive from God that which God gives freely which, according to the whole of Scripture, is Salvation into everlasting life of holiness and worship of God!

    Repentance is the purpose of a call from God! If one was doing what God wanted that one to do, God would not call the one and thereby disturb what the person is doing. The Call of God says "Stop what you are doing or going where you are going, I will change you and give you new tasks or new direction". Consider Paul's recruitment. He was on a mission to destroy Christians. Jesus stopped him on the road to Damascus. That was the end of Paul's mission to destroy. From that time forward, Paul's mission became to increase the number of Christians, not destroy them. When one is called by God but refuses to repent and follow God, there is no hope for that one. Jesus said, John 3:18, "Whoever believeth not is condemned by his own unbelief"

    No one repents unless they are convicted of their lost condition. Such conviction comes from knowledge (the word of God) that they are on the road to peril, and that there is one who has made the better way.

    Where work comes in is if you are called and do not respond, then you are attempting to work your own way instead of following God's way.
     

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