The Promise and the ancients

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Helen, Nov 13, 2002.

  1. Helen

    Helen
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    In another thread, Glen (Tyndale) wrote the following:
    I promised this two day ago to you, Glen. I have not forgotten. I have been thinking about how to respond, The reason is because it deserves a book so it can be completely referenced and demonstrated and if I do more than a page or two here, no one will take the time to read it. Here are a few points that may help, however:

    1. We are not only all descended from Adam, but the first generations lived so long that Adam could have handed his WRITTEN (see Genesis 5:1) memories to just one generation in between himself and Noah (Methuselah?) and Noah, being the righteous man of his generation, would have been the one God made sure had the Adamic manuscript to bring it through the Flood. That manuscript contained the original promise of a Savior in Genesis 3. And Adam lived long enough to tell a number of generations about it.

    2. Man named the animals, but God named the stars (see Isaiah 40). And the names all had meaning. We know this because the meaning of the names is still in every language of man. Malcolm Bowden documented this in the essay four of us co-wrote several years ago here."]http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/index.html]here[/URL].[/url] This is the exact story Abraham was told by God to recount in Genesis 15:5. Paul tells us that Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. The only righteousness we have is in Jesus Christ, and that is the story Abraham already knew was in the stars. It has since been corrupted into the occult astrology we associate with it today, but that is not what it once was. Nor would Satan have worked to corrupt it so completely if there had not been something he wanted to hide in the first place.

    3. The men in the Old Testament who were the faithful – the believers – only knew the Promise of God. The could not know about the Incarnation because they were on the other side of it. We read in 1 Peter 10 that even those who wrote the prophecies looked at them intently to find out more about the coming Messiah. What they had was the Promise. The same Promise Adam wrote about. The same Promise Noah brought through the Flood. The same Promise Abraham knew about. Those generations all knew about the Promise. And Christ Himself was and is the fulfillment of that Promise. It is Him. Believing on the Promise of God was the same as believing on Christ Himself.

    4. Here is the earliest known Veda from the Rig Veda:

    1 I Laud Agni, the chosen Priest, God, minister of sacrifice,
    The hotar, lavishest of wealth.
    2 Worthy is Agni to be praised by living as by ancient seers.
    He shall bring. hitherward the Gods.
    3 Through Agni man obtaineth wealth, yea, plenty waxing day by day,
    Most rich in heroes, glorious.
    4 Agni, the perfect sacrifice which thou encompassest about
    Verily goeth to the Gods.
    5 May Agni, sapient-minded Priest, truthful, most gloriously great,
    The God, come hither with the Gods.
    6 Whatever blessing, Agni, thou wilt grant unto thy worshipper,
    That, Angiras, is indeed thy truth.
    7 To thee, dispeller of the night, O Agni, day by day with prayer
    Bringing thee reverence, we come
    8 Ruler of sacrifices, guard of Law eternal, radiant One,
    Increasing in thine own abode.
    9 Be to us easy of approach, even as a father to his son:
    Agni, be with us for our weal.

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv01001.htm

    Despite the beginning corruption in the concept of more than one God, look at some of the other references: the Priest is God, he is the minister of sacrifice, he is the perfect sacrifice himself! That’s Christ! Already the corruption is showing, but it does not cancel that earliest truth – the Promise that even the Hindus who read that script can grasp onto today if the truth is what their hearts want. Agni here is the dispeller of the night, the guard of the eternal Law, the radiant One… it was still there when the Vedas were written! It was almost immediately covered over by all sorts of idolatry and nonsense and demonism, but that first hymn of the first book is still there (and there is more in other of the Vedic hymns), after all these years, giving testimony to the original knowledge men had.

    5. It is too difficult to repeat these quotes from various cultures here and now. I have so much in my notes here as I have already been offered publishing on both an article and a book based on some of this material and the truths which can be found in ancient legends when we strip away their mythologies – but the evidence is just about overpowering. God made Himself known to every tribe and every kingdom and every people on this earth, and the Promise was also known, one way or another, for people to either grasp onto as their only hope, or reject for another way or ways.

    God has truly not been willing that one should perish. Unlike so many here, I am convinced that God has given every sentient adult a choice about whether to respond positively or negatively to the truth revealed by God and, then, to the Promise offered by God. In every society for which we have records, the evidence seems to be there. The story, the history, the Promise were never entirely forgotten.
     
  2. Frogman

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    That is quite an emotional tug.

    However, the Veda is sacred only to Hindus. Hindus derived thier religion from Bhuddists. Bhuddists believe God, the supreme one, initiated and engaged in fornication with a human woman in order that the Bhudda be born into the world.

    This, while sounding close, is far enough from the truth of the Gospel of God and His Son that it is just enough to have men willing to believe those coming in their own name to choose that believe, call themselves o.k. convince the rest of the world and they all skip along the yellow brick road holding hands until they arrive at that eternal lake of fire where Rev. 14 says they shall be tormented in the presence of the Lamb and of His holy angels. Except that God has reserved from out of this pool of humankind, who by nature all are willing to believe a lie and be damned, those who will be regenerated in their hearts and turn in Godly repentance to the true and living God.

    This is the message that we are commissioned to preach. This is according to the Sovereign Grace of God, that is, the Sovereign unmerited favor of God, {BTW, it is this and this alone that tells the most detestable sinner he can be saved} that other system tells him he can choose it if he wants and he chooses, rather to continue in the pleasure of his sin, it is this Gospel that breaks the hearts of humans and that is the plowing of the Spirit. It is because of the Eternal Covenant decreed by God the Father and performed by God the Son that even we are able to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  3. Helen

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    I'm sorry, Dallas, but Buddhists are from Hindus, not the other way around. The text I quoted is thousands of years old and does indeed show that the original truth was hanging around still.

    There is no heart tug about any of it. It is just there. People knew. Cultures knew. And each sentient adult person ever alive has had a chance to respond to that knowledge.

    ============

    The wonderful thing about the Bible is that it is NOT distorted -- it's the straight, original stuff. It's the plumb line. But there is evidence in every culture we have records for that the original truth of the Promise of God and the knowledge of the fall of man from grace was never forgotten.

    [ November 13, 2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]
     
  4. Frogman

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    Helen,
    This is an unimportant point, as to who is older, of the two false religions we are discussing. But, the Hindu derived from the Bhuddist I believe, (my studies of Bhutan lead me to believe this). You are correct about all peoples knowing of the truth. They are, after all descended from three men, Ham, Shem, or Japheth. they have no excuse but that in thier depraved self will they continued to err from the truth of God. that is my point.

    Again, I do appreciate your studies. Just because some thing claims an ancient history does not make it truth, but you know that.

    I will check my notes concerning the point of hinduism and bhuddism, if I am wrong I will apologize for that. However, the outcome of that will not change the truth of God and His elect. Men just cannot repent and turn to God apart from God acting upon their hearts.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  5. Helen

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  6. BobRyan

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    In John 8 Christ says that "Abraham SAW my day and was Glad" - in fact Abraham saw Christ - "The I AM" of the Old Testament.

    IN Galations 3 we are told that the Gospel Itself was "preached beforehand to Abraham" - after making such a big point in Gal 1:6-9 that there is only ONE Gospel.

    And of course, there is Hebrews 4:1 telling us that "WE have had the Gospel preached to US JUST as they also" speaking of the Hebrews in the wilderness of Sinai.

    - So yes! "The Ancients" new about the Gospel - the One Gospel. And they were saved by Faith (Hebrews 11) Just as we are today.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Eric B

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    What they were calling "Gods" were obviously the angels. You can even see this in Revelation with "the angel over fire", and "the angel over the rivers". In tribal religions these became worshipped as separate gods in themselves, but still the connection to the truth is there. The same thing in the whole dabate over Allah. He had 99 or 360 attributes, which are biblical ("rahman the merciful", "the compassionate", etc), but pagan Arabs had made all these into separate gods, so when Muhammad came and said that Allah was the only one God, it looked as if he simply "picked one out of the pantheon" as many Christians charge.
    You see the same thing with Paul on Mars Hill in Acts.
    All of this shows how man had the truth and it became distorted into polytheism over time.
     
  8. tyndale1946

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    Interesting thought Eric but did not the unknown Gospel to the unknown God... Spread out to the known world then from Mars Hill?... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  9. Frogman

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    Thanks, Helen for the references.

    My point is that the truth of God disseminated from the sons of Noah to present. The heart of man is so depraved he changed the truth of God into a lie.

    Again thanks for your reference. the age of the false religions fail to make me believe any part of them not being tainted with sin.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas
     
  10. Frogman

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    Helen, your are correct.

    Thanks for your clarification.

    God Bless.
    Bro.Dallas
     
  11. Helen

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    Hi Dallas,

    The religions are for sure tainted with sin, and often twist the truth grotesquely. But the truth that 1)man need help desperately, and 2) man wants love just as much
    are the two hooks the gospel can be hung on with anyone. God has not left Himself without a witness, either externally or internally to each man.

    Have you read "Eternity in their Hearts" or "Bruchko"? Fascinating books. And there are so many more. One field of research I have been involved in and am intensely interesting in has to do with ancient legends. I have found almost consistently that when I peel away the mythological elements, I am coming up again and again with verification that memories of real disasters, some of which are mentioned in the Bible, are the core of these legends. The vast majority seem to have to do with real memories, well-shrouded, yes, but real nevertheless.

    I think the false religions carry some of that same quality. Each is built up by taking something of a known truth and running amok with it, adding (often demonic) bits here and there until it takes an awful lot of peeling away to see where on earth that original truth was they were trying to build on.

    And thanks for the acknowledgement of Buddhism and Hinduism. Buddha himself was a rebel against Hinduism!

    God bless.

    Helen
     
  12. Frogman

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    I have read this book and enjoyed it very much.

    I agree with you, the best I remember all ancient civilizations have similar stories/accounts of the flood of Noah's time, each with its own variation. (All people's ultimately came from the sons of Noah).

    I think the problem begins when we attempt to use portions of these errors to make openings (or to open doors) to witness the truth. This is exemplified by the Jesuit Priests who worked in Bhutan in the 16 th Century where Bhuddism is claimed to have begun (as a rebellion against the structuralism 'legalism' of Hinduism, which makes Bhuddism more of a universalizing religion; less the caste system so much) the problem is such that the Jesuits claimed the Bhuddist teaching of the story of God entering into a sexual relationship with the mother of Bhudda is essentially the same as the Biblical account of the birth of Christ. This is in all points, false.

    I caution only not to get so excited because of such similar stories these false religions are founded upon but to remain strong in the Grace that is in Christ Jesus and proclaim the Biblical truth.

    I saw a documentary once on Bhuddism in which it was magnified that the Bhudda was in the world 500 years before Jesus, thus, by implication Bhudda possessed a greater wisdom than Jesus, due to age. This point was repeated over and over, and ultimately was the point of the entire documentary. It degenerated to a work which ultimately had in view to deny Christ by showing he was a "new kid" on the block.

    I was wrong about the order of Hinduism and Bhuddism, thanks for clarifying that. I do appreciate your posts very much.

    (I have read the book 'Bruchko' but do not agree with all of his methods. I do believe he is a shining example, however, of God calling a man into a field among a primitive tribe, from among which there obviously were to be found the elect of God.) His strongest support is his own testimony of Grace. I believe though he has come to endorse modernism, that may just be personal opinion though and you can let it fly right by you. Nevertheless, it is a prime example of how God, fulfills scripture (1 Tim. 2.6), which scripture when followed to its end points not to all men, but to all of the elect.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     

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